Can anyone give definitive guidance on visuals?

[stephenbalmer]

Hello folks,

Following on from Michael_737_ATP's post on computer hardware, I would like to get a feel for the definitive method of running cockpit visuals.

I am running FSX with ProSim model and avionics as my base software. I intend to have 3 projectors providing 170-180 degrees of external visuals. The internal screens will have dedicated PC's (MIP, Lower EICAS).

In terms of driving the 3 external view projectors;

1. Is it a good option to drive each section of the external views on ONE PC with a video card capable of 3 outputs?

2. Or is it a better direction to have each section of the external views on a separate PC's, each with a single video card?
     2A. If going this route, how do i ensure seamless visuals across the external view with each section displaying correct weather etc.

3. What is the current best option of video card in each scenario?

I know this is discussed across this and other forums but I'm just trying to pull together your experiences in one post.

Many thanks,

Stephen.

[FredK]

Hi Stephen

This question has been asked and answered many times on this forum or others.

In either of the options you have identified you will be driving the same number of total pixels.  So basic logic dictates that multiple computers with multiple video cards will always yield better performance.  In the past there were issues with synchronizing weather using multiple computers but that is no longer the case so do not get confused by that.

Multiple computers of course equals added cost.

P3D offloads much of the calculation work onto the video card so a high end GPU would have more value there than for FSX.

Fred

[blueskydriver]

Here Stephen,

I copied this from my post over on Michael's thread:

What you see in Frank's video is the best of the setup types to be had. As a way of seeing the different types, I will list them:

1. one PC with highend video card single output going to a TH2GO box splitting that into 3 outputs for the 3 projectors or lcd tv screens. You then use multiple views in the FSX/P3D programs.

2. one PC with highend video card multihead output to the 3 projectors or lcd tv screens. Again, using multiple views in FSX/P3D

3. three PC's with almost highend or better video cards (you can go less with cards for FSX) in this setup. I myself would use all highend video. So, one PC per projector or lcd TV. You will need WideView to sync them all up together in the timing sense.

4. four PC's. Basically, the same as number 3 above, but you use the fourth PC as the server. Thus, the server tells the 3 visual client PC's what to display, where PC 4 is the how to PC. In other words, the 3 visual PC's don't spend time (I call it) searching or calculating/multitasking since PC 4 does that part, and it tells the 3 visual PC's where to be in coordinates visually...these are not technical terms, just my way too explain it.

5. The "Scott Array" setup (my new naming for it). Instead, of 3 projectors or lcd tv's you do 5 with 5 PC's! Scott is the man!

Finally, don't confuse WideView with a curvture program like Fly Elise or NTHUSIM. Wideview is a syncing program for the multiple PC setups. A curvture program is used for curvture correction of projecting flat images onto a curved screen. I must mention that a curvture program is software based; unless, you go very, very hignend stuff, where it is hardware based...big bucks for that stuff though.

In any of the 5 choices above, the trick is matching everything. Be it projectors, lcd tv's, computers (including all internal components) or even things like HDMI cable types and lengths, it all should be the same. Of course that is where the costs come into play...oh, I didn't even mention PC's or their monitors for use with the avionics software package(s), weather programs and so on...so, don't forget about that.

It's crazy insane stuff, but lots of fun!

John

[tennyson]

Stephen,
To my way of thinking, John and Fred have given the perfect answers.

I would also like to add, that after my unsuccessful attempt with one BIG  PC, I shelled out big bucks for 2 more well optioned PC's.

Added to that cost was 2 extra licenses for P3D, Immersive Display Pro, Calibration Pro and all the other associated software, running on the original PC.

So, don't forget to factor in those expenses because the software is much more expensive than the hardware.

I do not have the worry of going Commercial, as the money I've thrown at this project, is for myself.
If you plan on going commercial, you need to factor in that horrendous cost, as well.

I don't drink or smoke or run around with wild women, so for me having the one vice is acceptable, but sometimes I think about all the booze and smokes and gals that this Cockpit might have bought me.....hahaha!


Frank Cooper

[stephenbalmer]

Thank you very much guys, massively appreciated!!

Frank I will also consider the option of alternate, less expensive vices!!

Stephen.

[tennyson]

Stephen,
I could imagine you wouldn't have too much trouble finding the booze and cigs, but not sure if there are many wild women in Glasgow....


Frank Cooper 

[MCrevot]

Hi Stephen,

i recently migrates from a single view with two videoprojectors on a flat screen to a 3 views configuration with three videoprojectors and a 180° screen.
Obviously, a single PC is not sufficient.
So I have chosen a multiple PC config with wideview (wich is very simple to use) ; but i have not 3 FSX PC, but only 2, one server for the front view, and a client for both left and right views (the two corresponding views are arranged in a single eyefinity display).
The server is based on a 2600k, the client on a 4970k, i maintain 30 fps almost everytime, with a good level of détails.

Michel (from France)

[navymustang]

I am currently building a CRJ-700 for a client university.  Using P3D v2.5 on a host computer and a single visual computer.  Both are high end i7 processors running Windows 7 (64 bit).  The visual is linked to the host via WideView.  A 3rd computer is a dedicated IOS but it is a small portable low cost system.
The visual is driving 4 BenQ short throw projectors providing a 220 x 40 FOV at a nominal 30 fps.  High density airports will drop that to 20 - 25 FPS.  The out the window view is developed with 5 custom camera views each with a 44 degree HFOV.  VFOV is automatically established by P3D.  A single very high end video card VAPOR-X R9 290X 8GB GDDR5 PCI-E TRI-X (UEFI) drives all 3 video channels.
Would be glad to share details.

[kingchiro]

Wow would love the details.
I have a 4 monitor setup so assumed just un-plugging the HDMI cable from each one to corresponding projector, then warping software magic and voilà ? 
You lost me when you had 4 BenQ projectors but one video card pumping out 3 video channels ? Is it one video channel per  projector ?
Also could you mention which BenQ model you've chosen.
Time to learn from you guys.
Thanks for any help.
Mark

[Mach7]

@stephenbalmer

Why don't  you try using WideView?

I have 7 computers running 7 outside visuals (left, left fwd, front, etc etc) and the beauty of this is that the frame rates are not hit hard as the client computer is basically running a copy of FS9 or X in slew mode off the main master computer.

I picked up 7 reconditioned computers for between 100 and 150 bucks each off ebay, with authentic 100 percent certified copies of windows 7

You also have to have a copy of FS running on each client computer.

I considered TH2GO and many other options, but WideView works the best for me.

IMO I would stay away from projectors, I found them hard on the electrical bill and they generated quite a bit of heat.

[navymustang]

ooops - yes it is a 4 channel visual system, 4 projectors.  I am using the BenQ 1085ST.  They are about $900 each.
With regards to the post by Mach7, yes they eat electricity and generate lots of heat.  But if you want a truly immersive experience as in a real simulator you simply can't beat a projection system.  Lots of pros and cons either direction.  Budget is the huge driver, space is next.  But if realistic views are the end goal - you won't be disappointed.
A final note - Mach7's solution will give you the best frame rate and smoothness - so please take that into consideration also.

[Flying_Fox]

IMO I would stay away from projectors, I found them hard on the electrical bill and they generated quite a bit of heat.

I guess it's a tradeoff.

Currently I am running 3 projectors off one PC. I will possibly will go for 3 (or 3 + server) PCs with WideView later when I more or less complete sim building.

my main visuals PC typically eats 200 W.
3 projectors x 220 watts each = 660 W.
Total 860 W currently.

With Wideview version (4 pcs and 3 projectors), the power consumption would be 4 x 200  + 660 = 1460 W.

7  32" LED monitors might eat ~ 60 W each = 420 W. (or more with bigger monitors). Calculation according to http://energyusecalculator.com/electricity_lcdleddisplay.htm

7 desktop PCs x 200 W each  = 1400 W  + 420 W for monitors = 1820 W.

Or  7 desktop PCs x 150 W each  = 1050 W  + 420 W for monitors = 1470 W. .

So, the power consumption figures for 3 projectors and multi-monitor systems are at least comparable.

Yes, the projectors generate more heat and I have air conditioner for that. However, AC does not have to run all the time. And I don't run AC in winter time at all. With heating turned off in simulator room,  the sim may run for at least 4 hours without temperature in the room going over +25C. (But, say, for Florida your mileage may vary  )

So, for me the immersion factor definitely overweighs the power factor.


Nick

[Flying_Fox]

ooops - yes it is a 4 channel visual system, 4 projectors. 

Hi James,

BTW, what warping software do you use?

Nick

[MCrevot]

2 PC, 3 views on 3 projectors ; i use Fly elise immersive display pro (1 licence per PC, as for FSX), quite expensive but the job is well done : warping is easy to parametrize, very low impact on the fps, but at little degradation off the image definition, witch is obligatory ...
Michel