Starting new project?

[TheAviator]

Good evening!

As the title suggests, i'm starting a 777 project.
So basically, my two favourite aircrafts are the 757 and 777, and since there really are no quality parts to be bought anywhere for the 757, it was a simple choice to go with the 777.

Now, i am planning to buy what i can, i am hoping to get MIP and the glareshield structure from FDS. BUT, i already have the money down to buy 1 FMC for the 777. So i'm looking for a bit of advice, get the FMC now, or save up some more for to get the MIP and glare first?

Also, there are many things for the 777 that FDS does not deliver, at least there is a lot not on their website. So i'm wondering if anyone has plans/dimensions for a shell?
And also, is there any good 777 yokes/pedals/throttle on the market anywhere?

I emailed FDS, and they were asking a whopping 13,000$ for a TQ.

Lastly, i'm not very good or familiar with electronics. Do i need a lot of computers? Is there a lot of custom wiring involved in a build like this?

Thanks!
Kim.

[jackpilot]

It all depends on
your budget
how far you want to go in realism
what time frame you have in mind.

Remember that the 777 is a HUGE beast (do you have room for it)
FDS does full trainers including all hardware and software
Real TQs refurbished and interfaced are fairly expensive but you may get a repro or build it yourself
Here is a pic of a full cockpit to give you some idea of the size involved.
Think of the size of the windows when time will come to build a visual system !!!
It is indeed a major decision factor.
Jack

[quid246]

The first time I walked into a T7 cockpit, it was like walking into a big room... if you have the space though, go for it!

[RayS]

One of my first projects was a 777

http://anthonyscottphotography.com/777

It was a blast but I found I didn't have the time to devote 5-10 hours for those long-haul flights. I ultimately settled on a Beech 1900 Regional Turbo-pro from Carenado.

Not to dissuade you from building a 777 though... when I had it, it was a total blast!

I imagine the dimensions are fairly close to a 737, if not exact (MIP, center console)

However, Robert Prather has an awesome compilation of 777 info:
http://meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/fyi/fyi-777.html

I look forward to seeing your progress!

[TheAviator]

It all depends on
your budget
how far you want to go in realism
what time frame you have in mind.

Remember that the 777 is a HUGE beast (do you have room for it)
FDS does full trainers including all hardware and software
(BTW that kind of TQ is a real unit refurbished and interfaced, which means you can get a repro for much lower $)
Here is a pic of a full cockpit to give you some idea of the size involved.
Think of the size of the windows when time will come to build a visual system !!!
It is indeed a major decision factor.
Jack

Thanks for your reply.
My budget is around 40,000$, obviously i don't have that kind of money now, but i make enough to say that that's a realistic budget. So i don't want to spend more than that on the finished thing. When it comes to realism, i want it as realistic as i can get it with the budget i've set. And the time frame is as long as it takes

I have two decent sized garages, so space is not an issue. Do you know anywhere it is possible to get a repro 777 TQ?

Kim.

[TheAviator]

One of my first projects was a 777

http://anthonyscottphotography.com/777

It was a blast but I found I didn't have the time to devote 5-10 hours for those long-haul flights. I ultimately settled on a Beech 1900 Regional Turbo-pro from Carenado.

Not to dissuade you from building a 777 though... when I had it, it was a total blast!

I imagine the dimensions are fairly close to a 737, if not exact (MIP, center console)

However, Robert Prather has an awesome compilation of 777 info:
http://meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/fyi/fyi-777.html

I look forward to seeing your progress!

That is really the only concern i've had with this whole thing, only being able to do long hauls. But i think it will be fine. I kind of want to do something that not everyone else is doing.

Thanks for the info!

Kim.

[HarryZ]

Think of the size of the windows when time will come to build a visual system !!!
It is indeed a major decision factor.
Jack

How very true!  If you are planning to use a projector system, you will need short throw projectors capable of giving you a large vertical viewing area for the entire screen width. The windows of this a/c are very large and if you don't plan the visuals carefully, you might end up being quite disappointed in the results.

[jackpilot]

Your 40K will go a long way if you buy smart
By smart I mean not trying to put together components from various sources which were not meant to work together, and this includes the software.

Some fairly expensive parts like the TQ can be built at home
Ex: as I dislike the 737 TQ, I built  a 787 style TQ from scratch .
Cost was around $400 and  100 hours.
Check the build at: http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4135

Unfortunately many builders think that they can build things like the MIP and MIP stand easily out of wood, mdf  or some, only to discover later that nothing will really fit well and that they have to start all over again.
IMHO, for your project, I would start with two basic building blocks, (from FDS or from any other supplier which sells them) because these professionnal stuctures will give you a very solid base to build upon(or around) as you do not have to guess dimensions, angles, positions, structural integrity.. etc
It might eat a good chunk of your budget but ultimately it will save you 100s of hours of frustration and a less than satisfactory result.

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/components/b777/b777-mipmain/fds-b777-mip-main/
http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/components/b777/b777-mipmain/fds-b777-cdu-bay-dz/

Go for the 777 if it is your dream, and do not worry too much about long haul, the T7 can do short hops too as a sim never gets the fuel bills.
Cheers
Jack

[MCrevot]

Hi Jack,

each time i look at your TQ, I am jalous !

I am planning to build a new CNC able to machine aluminium, and then my first project will be a TQ like yours for my A320.

Michel

[RayS]

Unfortunately many builders think that they can build things like the MIP and MIP stand easily out of wood, mdf  or some, only to discover later that nothing will really fit well and that they have to start all over again.

That's true, but I've had some good luck in building all my components out of MDF. The process does take a fair amount of planning, especially when it comes to fitting LCD panels, backlighting, and minuscule things like compensating for switch depth.

You're right though.. get that part wrong and you're gutting everything and starting over.

[rprather]

The 777 flight deck is piece of artwork and has been a pleasure to build. The advice given so far is spot on... Since components for much of the flight deck aren't available, careful and thorough planning is the key to building the 777. This is made more challenging by the fact that things such as dimensions can be very difficult to find. I use numerous parts from the 747-400 and 757/767.

Like Jack and Ray mentioned, the MIP is a great place to start, but a LOT of design consideration has to be given to the "end game." How will you attach other components... glareshield mounts, overhead, EICAS stand, clearance between the back of the landing gear handle and the adjoining monitors, etc. The design process of my latest MIP took approximately 1 year. I don't regret it AT ALL, but you just have to start with realistic expectations. I've rebuilt my MIP (and most of my sim) 4 or 5 times over the last 15 years. You'll either spend money or a much greater equivalent in time. The latter of which is the reason I enjoy building though.

This link shows the progression of my MIP from design to completion:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24409839@N07/albums/72157628228518487

Latest shots of my MIP:

[Nat Crea]

Like Harry said, bear in mind the size of a full B777 if you go that way.
You will need a decent size room!
Here's one we installed in 2014...

Nat

[TheAviator]

Your 40K will go a long way if you buy smart
By smart I mean not trying to put together components from various sources which were not meant to work together, and this includes the software.

Some fairly expensive parts like the TQ can be built at home
Ex: as I dislike the 737 TQ, I built  a 787 style TQ from scratch .
Cost was around $400 and  100 hours.
Check the build at: http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4135

Unfortunately many builders think that they can build things like the MIP and MIP stand easily out of wood, mdf  or some, only to discover later that nothing will really fit well and that they have to start all over again.
IMHO, for your project, I would start with two basic building blocks, (from FDS or from any other supplier which sells them) because these professionnal stuctures will give you a very solid base to build upon(or around) as you do not have to guess dimensions, angles, positions, structural integrity.. etc
It might eat a good chunk of your budget but ultimately it will save you 100s of hours of frustration and a less than satisfactory result.

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/components/b777/b777-mipmain/fds-b777-mip-main/
http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/components/b777/b777-mipmain/fds-b777-cdu-bay-dz/

Go for the 777 if it is your dream, and do not worry too much about long haul, the T7 can do short hops too as a sim never gets the fuel bills.
Cheers
Jack

Hello again,
I have been thinking about what you said about the 777 window size for a while, and i have decided not to go with the 777 after all. You made a valid point that i had not even considered. I was not planning to have a full shell right off the bat, but i was hoping to get one in the future, and i'm a bit worried about the visuals as was mentioned.

So, what can you tell me about the 747's window size compared to for example the 737? Is it a viable option. I have been able to save up around 4500$, so i can get my project going at any time, i just cannot decide on what aircraft to go for.

Another thing i am wondering is if one of my spare rooms are big enough for a sim project, so i can have it inside rather than in my garage. It's 2,3 X 3,3 meters. What do you think?

- Kim.

[jackpilot]

Too small IMHO
the base for a 737 which is the smallest airliner is about 8 X 8 feet, (2,4m square) and you need extra room for the visuals and clearance to go around the shell.
747 is bigger.
Jack

[RayS]

...at a minimum, the clearance for the visuals (If you decide to go with a 2 or 3 projector setup with a curved screen), is 12 feet across, and add another 3 or 4 feet in front of the sim for clearance.


...and don't forget extra clearance for the beer fridge!

[ETomlin]

I would like to give you some thought about another aircraft altogether- have you ever considered a Learjet 45? About 95% of all the parts have been developed and are available to you over the building period, with the last 5% being items that are under development. Seriously consider this as a viable option. Unless you are super tall and weigh more than 250 lbs (not either/or, but both combined) then you can enter and exit the LJ45 if in reasonable health. The benefits of going smaller and corporate are immense. We have about 15-20 guys doing LJ45's and some of the many reasons are:

Smaller footprint,
Freedom to fly into many more airports,
Freedom to simulate much more flexible routing,
Something different for a change (vs an airliner),
Simple avionics, (www.flightdecksoft.com)
Simple hardware interfacing,
A very strong dedicated group of LJ45-specific builders to offer support (www.Hangar45.net),
Fewer vendors= tighter integration (because we all work together hand-in-hand in our design process), 
Relatively Easy build no overhead panel- this allows you to build the entire sim minus the cockpit shell until you're ready for it (build as you fly),
Everyone loves fast little jets,
Everyone thinks that all the little jets are Learjets- your's actually would be :-).

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFGEfMgsrU

An extremely nice LJ45 can be built for $40,000 or less. I'd love to talk to you about it more if it interests you.

[jackpilot]

Good point Eric.
We tend to forget the Bizjets (which are a blast to fly)
(Shane will approve for sure ...lol)

Jack

[TheAviator]

I would like to give you some thought about another aircraft altogether- have you ever considered a Learjet 45? About 95% of all the parts have been developed and are available to you over the building period, with the last 5% being items that are under development. Seriously consider this as a viable option. Unless you are super tall and weigh more than 250 lbs (not either/or, but both combined) then you can enter and exit the LJ45 if in reasonable health. The benefits of going smaller and corporate are immense. We have about 15-20 guys doing LJ45's and some of the many reasons are:

Smaller footprint,
Freedom to fly into many more airports,
Freedom to simulate much more flexible routing,
Something different for a change (vs an airliner),
Simple avionics, (www.flightdecksoft.com)
Simple hardware interfacing,
A very strong dedicated group of LJ45-specific builders to offer support (www.Hangar45.net),
Fewer vendors= tighter integration (because we all work together hand-in-hand in our design process), 
Relatively Easy build no overhead panel- this allows you to build the entire sim minus the cockpit shell until you're ready for it (build as you fly),
Everyone loves fast little jets,
Everyone thinks that all the little jets are Learjets- your's actually would be :-).

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFGEfMgsrU

An extremely nice LJ45 can be built for $40,000 or less. I'd love to talk to you about it more if it interests you.

Hello!

No, i actually have never thought about that. What size are we talking about, if you build with a shell?
And what about parts? As i do not have access to machinery for creating parts myself, i am dependant on being able to buy finished and good to go parts.
In addition to that, i am not good with electronics at all, so having something finished with instructions on how to wire it all up is a big advantage

Kim.

[Bob Reed]

I have not gotten into this discussion up until now. All the advice given is good and should be at least given consideration in the decision making but...... And I speak from many restarts.... What aircraft do you want to build? I have always wanted to build the 737, even before you could buy any parts for it from venders. I have started it many times only to one way or another think I wanted a different aircraft. Started the new aircraft only to lose interest and for a bit walk away from the sim hobby. I am now building the 73 and will stay with that bird. I say this only to have you think about what it is you want to build. Take other factors out of the equation and give thought to what YOU want to build. Once that is settled then decide if it is feasible. You need to be happy with what you are building. Just something else to give thought too.

[xplanematt]

Just another thought....some folks have built only half a cockpit (the pilot's side, obviously). This would be one way for you to use your existing space, but still build the big airliner of your dreams. You could always build the second half once you get your dream shop.

I will second the Learjet idea, however.....bizjets are totally cool, and not a lot of people are doing them. I prefer the old-school models, but a 45 is indeed nice.

Matt

[TheAviator]

I have not gotten into this discussion up until now. All the advice given is good and should be at least given consideration in the decision making but...... And I speak from many restarts.... What aircraft do you want to build? I have always wanted to build the 737, even before you could buy any parts for it from venders. I have started it many times only to one way or another think I wanted a different aircraft. Started the new aircraft only to lose interest and for a bit walk away from the sim hobby. I am now building the 73 and will stay with that bird. I say this only to have you think about what it is you want to build. Take other factors out of the equation and give thought to what YOU want to build. Once that is settled then decide if it is feasible. You need to be happy with what you are building. Just something else to give thought too.

That's exactly what i'm struggeling with, i simply can't decide. As i wrote a bit further up, i was going with the T7, but after a lot of very good advice about the window size, i have scrapped that idea. I am basically in between the 747 and the 737 at the moment. I want to build the 747 because it is a fantastic aircraft, that i've always liked, but then again, i don't know that i want to be stuck with only doing long haul flights, and not be able to fly to, for example my home airport which is too small. So the 737 is a good choice, but the reason i didn't want to build it in the first place, was because everyone is doing them. Not that that's a bad thing. So i guess i just have to make a choice and stick with it.

Just another thought....some folks have built only half a cockpit (the pilot's side, obviously). This would be one way for you to use your existing space, but still build the big airliner of your dreams. You could always build the second half once you get your dream shop.

I will second the Learjet idea, however.....bizjets are totally cool, and not a lot of people are doing them. I prefer the old-school models, but a 45 is indeed nice.

Matt

Another good idea, but i kind of want to go with the full thing when i first get started. Once i start buying parts i am going to just get it flying in the room i already have available, while i refurbish my garage a bit this summer, and eventually move it down there.

[ETomlin]

I would like to give you some thought about another aircraft altogether- have you ever considered a Learjet 45? About 95% of all the parts have been developed and are available to you over the building period, with the last 5% being items that are under development. Seriously consider this as a viable option. Unless you are super tall and weigh more than 250 lbs (not either/or, but both combined) then you can enter and exit the LJ45 if in reasonable health. The benefits of going smaller and corporate are immense. We have about 15-20 guys doing LJ45's and some of the many reasons are:

Smaller footprint,
Freedom to fly into many more airports,
Freedom to simulate much more flexible routing,
Something different for a change (vs an airliner),
Simple avionics, (www.flightdecksoft.com)
Simple hardware interfacing,
A very strong dedicated group of LJ45-specific builders to offer support (www.Hangar45.net),
Fewer vendors= tighter integration (because we all work together hand-in-hand in our design process), 
Relatively Easy build no overhead panel- this allows you to build the entire sim minus the cockpit shell until you're ready for it (build as you fly),
Everyone loves fast little jets,
Everyone thinks that all the little jets are Learjets- your's actually would be :-).

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFGEfMgsrU

An extremely nice LJ45 can be built for $40,000 or less. I'd love to talk to you about it more if it interests you.

Hello!

No, i actually have never thought about that. What size are we talking about, if you build with a shell?
And what about parts? As i do not have access to machinery for creating parts myself, i am dependant on being able to buy finished and good to go parts.
In addition to that, i am not good with electronics at all, so having something finished with instructions on how to wire it all up is a big advantage

Kim.

Hi Kim

Good questions. I placed links above to both Hangar45.net (dedicated LJ45 builder's group) and to FlightDeckSoft (dedicated LJ45 Avionics package). What I did not do was link to my own site (www.FlightLineSimulations) or to my partner's site (www.Project45.us). Between he and I, we make about 95% of the sim, minus yokes and CDUs. These are bought by everyone off of ebay or from scrap yards because the yokes in LJ25, LJ35, etc. are the same yoke as the 45. Ron makes the shell for the project and many, many other parts. I make all the back-lit instrument panels. In many cases he and I team up to co-develop parts that are more complicated. I think that if you wanted something more manageable, the LJ45 would be a perfect project to consider. However, Bob's advice on really thinking long and hard about what you really want is probably the best advise I've seen on here lately. With that, I would only add to it that you should also consider "what is honestly feasible?". If you really want something, and it's not feasible, then sometimes the best thing to do is to walk away for a few days, weeks, months and see if when you come back, you cannot go on without at least attempting to build it. That's when you know for sure that you must dedicate your path to that project because as everyone here will attest to, sim building is not a fast or affordable hobby- in the ways of both money and time- and so be sure that whatever you put your hands to, it's a good investment.

I'd love to see you drop by Hangar45.net sometime and see what all we've accomplished. It's pretty amazing.

All the best,

[jackpilot]

I want to build the 747 because it is a fantastic aircraft, that i've always liked, but then again, i don't know that i want to be stuck with only doing long haul flights, and not be able to fly to, for example my home airport which is too small.

Just food for thought:
You are building a sim, not an airline with cost control guidelines.
Besides the runway length, a 747 can do short hops, as short as a simple circuit pattern!
Flying from your home airport will be fun... at first..but boring after a while as you have the whole planet on your hard disk!
The 747 cockpit is very close to the 777 as far as size, windows, ...and budget!!
Check Jon's sim at:
http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4981

Jack

[bernard S]

Oh man are you in for a ride of your life... I think first thing you have to do is decide on your aircraft either T7 74 or 73  but the bottom line here is you will not get a reasonable completed sim for the above for your budget of 40k (USD) amount period.. Your best bet and value is the L45 and because of its size it is doable  i.e  you can build and fly it and actually complete the project.  Once you have completed it you can always sell it as a turn key unit take what you have learnt and apply it to the bigger toys but again it does not blow stuff up  if I was starting over with a budget of that I would do a good A10 using DCS software they are just as complex as a transport aircraft you get to do multiplay great missions etc   did I say you get to blow stuff up ?     

[jackpilot]

Sticking to my guns....40K will go a long way if you buy smart and avoid some costly gizmos which are not always overpriced but are an overkill in a personal sim not intended for training...like motorized TQs or yokes, J rails and the like. Besides,with some patience, real parts are widely available on EBay for some liners and fit perfectly with quality repro products.