FDS-O2 Panels For Sale!!! Realiable Realistic Panels!!!

[blueskydriver]

Hey Everyone,

To my amazement and utter surprise, I found out today that Flightdeck Solutions sells a realistic set of O2 Panel representations that includes a push button to simulate the Oxygen test sound. HOORAY! Since I already own a lot of FDS items, it makes (or would've made) perfect sense for me to buy from them.

However, for some reason, I didn't think they sold them, so I tried other means of procurement, which didn't work out at all. In my frustrations, I emailed Peter (PC) about it and within a day, he is like "Yes, John we do make them..." and he sent me a pic of a set installed (I've attached it to this post). He says the invoice will be forthcoming on Monday. The current price is $129 CDN each, with today's exchange rate that's about $100 US each.

Currently, I feel so relieved...why? Before I answer, please understand that this is my opinion and/or the rest of my story. Thus, the thing is I have been feeling more depressed over the last 6 months due to a lot of major ongoing health issues, so much that flight simulation was no longer interesting, and that is a lot too say about a guy like me who is so passionate about it.

However, one day I see a post on Cockpit Builders about a Vendor who has O2 Panels for sale and for whatever reason, it gave me a spark of hope for going on in life and not to give up yet. I even explained it to the vendor, who totally understood. Call it whatever you want, but too me it was one of those big heavenly chorus singing moments in the background, as I thought "WOW, AWESOME O2 panels, those will look really neat in my new FDS Black Nose Section with Liner Kit! So, I had too buy a set for sure...Thus with high hopes about something so simple, and with my new spark of inspiration overtaking me, I figure what could go wrong?

Well..., my choice of the spark maker (vendor) was not the best and I only blame myself for not doing better research on that spark maker. Had I known that this would've been such a difficult affair, I would've just stuck with my depression and waited for a dfferent spark to occur.

Knowingly, I should've contaced FDS first because I never once had a problem by going with them, oh sure, other people may have from time to time, but FDS is known for fixing those problems pretty quick. And, if your items will be delayed, they call or email you PDQ to let you know about it, as well as provide you realistic shipment dates. If they say a week, a month or even a year, then I expect it too be a week or month or year. In the business world, a man's promise is his word (name and reputation); therefore, I strongly believe that any vendor who pride's themselves will attest to that. So, for me, I got all the time and patience in the world too wait, but it's just the fact that when you make a contract and give your word on a completion date, it better be completed on time, as promised!

Anyway, moving on to brighter times, my spark is now relit and even brighter then befoe because I know that Peter, Steve and the rest of the folks at FDS will insure those O2 Panels are done right and they get them too me as promised. Funny, maybe I should have them add real O2 bottles because with all my happy excitement I might need some fresh air...lol!

Lastly, I will remind anyone who reads this that I DID NOT provide names of the other vendor(s), nor the details of those dealings. I will not post anything openingly that identifies who they are, but I might provide some info without names through PM's, which are just that, "private messages not too be shared". Why do that? Well, to help other buyers like me avoid the lower level vendors who could rip you off and reach for the higher ones that will come through as promised; albeit, it might cost you a little more, but in my book it's well worth the extra costs!

If you are feeling a little leery about a deal you currently have that has gone beyond expectations, just send me a PM and I will help anyway that I can. And, frankly for me, in regards to my previous attempts, I just want to move on and once I get my refund for the products/services not provided, back through PayPal, I will be very happy and never look back!

Finally, I leave you with thes tidbits; how long is too long and how many promses are too many, as well as how many smooth talking salesmen are you willing to endure before you say "forget it, give me my money back?" Plus, you should never accept the "Well, he, she, they or whoever else has been burned before, so don't feel so bad..." Just because someone else has been taken advantage of doesn't mean you have too...there is no merit badge for getting screwed over in order to own a flight simulator.

Best Regards To All,

John

Ps. Again, this is my opinion that has no connection to a vendor(s), member(s) or any other identity. Please do not misconstrue my post or use excerpts for quotes; you must request my permission to quote it, which means you must use all of it or none at all....nothing out of context. PM me for permission and/or other questions...

[tote_320]

I really know your exact feeling Jhon, unfortunately i have a case, with a 6k eur order, now 8 months behind shedule, we've been more than great clients during the process, and we really start to get tired of the vendor, no answered mails, no info whatsoever during months, we felt like the money is just lost.

We asked for some feedback through a facebook page about the vendor we are dealing and we got threatened "remove the post or your order will never come through" really really bad experience, we hope we knew this website before because it has a warning issue about the vendor we are dealing with.

It is so frustraring, cuz me paid in advance, and we are just asking for real dates, it doesnt matter if you take a year, but dont tell me
"Its gonna be shipped in 1 week" and 8 months later the answer its the same.

Now that im involved in this kind of things i must say, those post about feeedback are really important. Dont hold any information about yor experiences, they are sooo important!! Really big deal!

[archen]

Tote_320:
What vendor are you dealing with?

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[tote_320]

We have some legal actions involved, so i dont want to tell it yet, we sent the vendor a last chance, and whatever the result, good or positive after the resolution we will post the long 10 month experience so it can help any possible buyer to make their choice. Through PM i can tell you everything though hahaha

[blueskydriver]

PM'ed him same question.

His story is not unusual, but € 6,000 is a heck a lot of money to just give away. Okay, not give away, but he ordered product(s) and did not receive them and is now getting the blow off treatment.

Somehow or another the purchasing process needs too change for vendors and all of us flight simulation members/builders can make it happen collectively. For example; maybe, we can all agree that a vendor only gets 25% up front and the rest upon delivery, that way the most a buyer can lose is that amount should the vendor not come through. I know this sounds silly, but these vendors' need us and websites like this one, MyCockpit, AVSim and so on, are where they get their customers from. So, once the word gets spread around enough, it could happen.

OR, perhaps the vendors reading this post might take up the mantle and run with it; thereby, taking all the business away from the others. I will say this, Flightdeck Solutions already only requires 25% deposit upfront to get your order on the production line and you pay the remainder when your items are ready for shipment. So, that method should be no problem for the other vendors, if it is, I recommend for every to buy from FDS, period...yes, yes they might charge a bit more, but they have a good track record and which one is cheaper? You paying FDS 5-10% more then you pay other vendors or you lose 100% because the lower vendor stole all your money?

Also, I encourage everyone too use PayPal whenever possible, because at least with them you have a better chance of getting your money back should the vendor fail to produce the products.

Also, we need to start something like a review/survey database or like an Angie's List (I am going to check Angie's list too see if they can do this), that only has pre-determined questions and answers without an area for comments. Something that would answer simple questions about vendors, but leaves out the he said/she said aspects; here are some quick examples I came up with.

Vendor Name is:_______________

1. Which items did you order?
    a. MIP
    b. FWD Overhead
    c. Aft Overhead
    d. Pedestal
    e. Throttle Assy
    f.  Other
2. How long was you told it would take?
    a. 1 month or less
    b. 1-3 months
    c. 3-12 months
    d. 12-18 months
    e. Over 18 months
3. Did the vendor delivery on time?
    a. Yes
    b. No
4. How many changes of delivery dates were you given by the vendor via phone call or email?
    a. 1
    b. 2-5
    c. 6-10
    d. 11 or more
5. Did you eventually receive your order in full?
    a. Yes
    b. No

Those are just some questions off the top of my head, but I'm sure we all could come up with more that doesn't go into every detail, but will give an average rating about the vendors.

Finally, I do agree that flight simulation is a small pond/niche market hobby and we're lucky just to have vendors or some guy in his garage making panels, BUT there is no reason for us builders just too be fish food and be eaten alive or taken advantage of because we're desperate for this cockpit section or that panel here or there..,

John

[archen]

I'm already offering payment by invoice (needs to be paid before shipping but can of course be paid when the products is finished and ready for shipping).

Shipping items without payment is not an option when sending intl but that's maybe not what you mean?

My products is however not that expensive do most pay upfront. 

Br
Anders

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[blueskydriver]

Hi Anders,

Being that your items are not to expensive is great, but my thoughts still apply, for example, a buyer calls/emails you and wants x amount of items, and then you make up an invoice order for the buyer that is an itemized list that has a clause that states "A minimum non-refundable deposit of 25% of your total cost must be paid upfront, before your items are even made".

If the buyer accepts, he/she transfers 25% of the total costs to you via Visa Card, Master Card, American Xpress, PayPal or Bank Transfer (whatever method that is used). You then provide a receipt of that 25% being paid to you back to the buyer.

Now, once the items are ready for shipping to the buyer, you contact him and ask for the remaining 75% and he pays, then you contact the shipper and get the tracking number for the buyer, so they can track the items themselves.

However, this is where the problem lies, a vendor could contact the buyer saying the items are ready, so buyer pays the remainder, but the shipping never occurs and/or the vendor makes up some story about how his dog flew too the moon and his grandma got hired at nasa, along with the shipping company says they don't like his grandma...lol...I am just kidding, but my point is once the trust gets broken by just one vendor and now all vendors are suspect...

In regards to the buyer not paying the remainder or the 75%; well, if he doesn't pay, the seller keeps the 25% as per the contract. And, since the items are already made, you will be able too sell them much faster.

Still, how can this be overcome by vendors and sellers? The only answer I can think of is a bonding agent service of sorts, where a third party is involved. The buyer sends all money to the bonding agent and once the items are received by the buyer, the bonding agent forwards the funds to the seller. Of course this adds to the cost, and you could have the "the buyer wasn't happy or something was broken in shipping aspects". The broken parts during shipping is easy to fix, buyer must pay for shipping insurance, but the buyer saying "I am not happy with the items" is harder too deal with for sure. Either the vendor agrees to accept returns, but with a large restocking fee applied or he 100% guarantees everything; although, that is a major thing too do, so that becomes another problem.

Anyway, everything I just said applies more to higher costs items, like whole SSTD or DSTD, MIPS, Overhead, Pedestal and etc. For smaller items like yours, I honestly believe you should have them stocked on hand. Since you only make a few items, why not stock 20 of each item at a time? Yes, you will have upfront costs, but you could charge 10-20% more for each one when you get an order and can ship it the same or next day.

Believe me, which one do you think I would choose, if you told me for X amount of dollars more you can ship it out today/tomorrow, or for slightly lower X amount of dollars you will make it for me within the next 1, 2, 3, or 4 weeks and email me when it's ready too ship? Speaking for myself here, I would pay more and want it the next day or 2nd day; remember I am not talking about shipping, I am saying that the part is already made and you will have shipper pick it up by today or tomorrow...

Surely, I am not trying to tell anyone how to run their business, but if you make one item or one hundred, why not stock them; instead, of makng them on demand? Seriously, sooner or later a vendor will come along and realize this, and when they do, all the on demand vendors will be gone.

Why? Because we live in a "want it now" era and the ways of our grand-parents are over; you know where you see the item in a catalog, call and order it, then wait 6 months for Joe the mailman to drop it off... Plus, the younger generations already expect this "I want it now". Yes, I know all of us older guys and girls will disagree, but it's called target market and the matrix of buying and selling...you must always please your target audience...always.

Well, I explained quite a bit, but I hope it helps the vendors out some. And yes, I will be buying some items from you soon Anders...do you have any start switches in stock ready too go right now...lol...no really?

Best Regards,

John

[archen]

Hi again John,

Actually, I don't require any payment up-front at all. Everything can be paid when ready for shipping if you prefer. I'll sell the items anyway so if a customer decides to bail no big harm for me. Happened a few times actually.

I actually prefer to have everything paid up-front or before shipping (less accounting for me if paid all in once instead of 25% now and 75% then.)

This is my second work and not my primary hence the time is limited (I guess this applies to many vendors in this business). If I had the time to stock 20+ of each switch I would certainly do it. However, my goal for 2018 is to have everything in stock all the time and to achieve this I've just bought a new cnc-machine which is a lot more efficient and more precise. I just received it the other week (1 month late, and some parts where missing so I'm not up & running fully yet, all my parts needed to be reworked as well). So at the moment I'm struggling to keep 3 weeks delivery which I promise today but I'm doing my very best.

My first goal now is to finish all orders I've at the moment and in January start to build up stock on a few items (initially Eng starters and N1/SPD Ref).

I totally agree with you on that leadtimes is a big factor and that is why I'm doing the above mentioned changes.

Thanks for the input, highly appriciated.

Best regards,
Anders

[blueskydriver]

Hi Anders,

That is good news about you upgrading your equipment and better yet, very brave of you too be honest and open about your situation. It shows you are trying to make things better and as a communication specialist, I can tell you that PR is everything from the one man show all the way up to the million man company. In other words, my advice to all vendors always communicate even the bad news because your customers just want too know something. Albeit, not lies or decent, but the simple truth via emails, a blog, a web page or even your voicemail.

As long as you provide current event information customers will hang in there with you. What I mean is, if your CNC breaks down, announce it to everyone and say all expected dates will be delayed by x amount of days or weeks. Just as long as that does not happen all the time or excuses are just made up. Heck, even saying this is my second job and my first job wanted me to work overtime for the last week and has delayed my output production by x amount...they will understand. That will let customers know you are the same as them...a person.

Sorry, if I am going on, but I am hoping other vendors will take note of your postings and see that it's not that hard of a thing too do right? Oh wait, yes I must add there are some customers you cannot make happy no matter what and those are the ones who you soon start ignoring. However, keep trying to make them happy because they usually turned out too be the ones spreading bad rumors the most about the vendor (insert vendor name).

Thanks again,

John

[RayS]

Having been both buyer and seller,  I understand the frustration on both sides.

As a seller, way back in the day I offered various interface cards. With each order I had to assemble and solder each card individually. This worked... for awhile, until the products started gaining in popularity.

Then, with each order, instead of happiness, it was dread. Assembling the cards became something of a chore, but I always wanted to make the customer happy. Then one day I received an order for about 10 cards. I completed the order and shut down shop.  It became un-enjoyable at that point.

This is where I think many new vendors make the mistake of not being aware of what it actually takes to be successful. It takes work.

To that end, I believe in transparency. Sites like Yelp!, or eBay have this nailed. Rate the vendor AND rate the customer. If we had a portal or some sort of clearinghouse site where vendors and customers could rate eachother, the problems would be there for everyone to see, and the cream would rise to the top.

[Joe Lavery]

We have that facility Ray!

We could adopt John's suggestion and going forward have a list of products we bought, with the facts and timings of the purchase, (without any disparaging comments) for all to see and use as a source of reference.

It needn't have prices or any information that is not relevant to the actual transaction, simply the time taken to deliver against the promises made. But this information would need to be backed up with full proof of the dates etc. (if required), to stop any dealers trying to bad mouth the competition. (as if they would)!!

As a community we have more strength than may be apparent; over the years we have all paid out thousands of pounds, (dollars or what ever your currency might be) for goods that can be quite expensive. Why then should we accept far worse terms than we would expect when buying for example a TV or a car. I assume no one would hand over (to quote an example in this thread) £14,000 for a car, to be told it would be delivered in six months.

The point being that under these conditions (even if you pay with PayPal) you have no way to recover your money. If the company ceases trading it's gone, your only recourse then is to file against the directors of the company personally; which in another country would probably cost more than it's worth.

So I agree with John. let's start a list and use something like the template he suggested.


Joe.

[RayS]

I agree, in part. I think having that kind of feedback has more impact at the point/time of sale, where it's right in front of you at the moment of purchase. Anything else I think falls into the dead-zone of sites like the Better Business Bureau. Sure... the information is there, but if one has to hunt for it, it's basically useless.

There have been many occasions on eBay that I was ready to purchase but declined based on information at the point/time of sale. I think that's key.

[Joe Lavery]

I think most of us spend quite some time deliberating before making a purchase. So scanning through a list, (search is useful) just to see if anyone has had any issues with a prospective supplier would be time well spent... IMHO...

I would agree for purchases on sites like eBay or Amazon, the feedback system is invaluable (both for buyers and sellers). But that's not possible in the scenario previously outlined. There is no way that it could be implemented, so perhaps a list would be better than nothing, again IMHO.

Joe.

[blueskydriver]

I think we could do it via speadsheet style or in a survey format, with the biggest thing to work out is the questions. We all could come together on that...

Plus, if Trevor could come up with something through XML or HTML to run it, as well as set it up so it'll just be making selections to predetermined answers, that would be great.

Then, host those results on Cockpit Builders, with a disclaimer. IMHO, this would be a good starting point for members to go find out more info about vendors and it would help non-members alike. At this point, it should only be about hardware and not software...

John

[Trevor Hale]

Plus, if Trevor could come up with something through XML or HTML to run it, as well as set it up so it'll just be making selections to predetermined answers, that would be great.

Sorry guys but that's not going to happen. This site was put here for the primary purpose of helping builders, meeting with friends and providing advice.


We are not in the business of slamming vendors or supporting vendors.  This is not going to turn into that kind of site.


Besides. I know from experience, reviews have a statute of limitations.


For example...  Engravity use to be a top notch vendor. That's come to pass. Ace Yokes use to be a top notch vendor. That also came to pass.


Reviewing a business today won't help you or protect you from what they do tomorrow.


Sorry but that's not the direction for us.

[Bob Reed]

I am going to put my  in here as well. The work involved in a task such as this would be huge. Who is going to maintain it? Folks do not realize what goes into maintaining something like this and yes, it would need maintaining. Lets take this site for instance. Most do not realize the amount of work that goes into keeping this site up. Trevor and I have put in some really long days and nights at times to keep it up and running. There are just the 2 of us and we have families, our own sims and yes, we have other interests. Fortunately we do have a few other folks who help us with the day to day stuff. Thanks guys! Further more, we are already known as a very vender unfriendly site. Do you see a lot of venders in here? No... Give that some thought. Now about the venders..... We as a group (and I am talking the hobby not this site) seem to think we are this huge group. We are not. We maybe a group of about, ok I am going to be very generous here, 2500 people throughout the world. And in that group probably more than half are already customers of FDS and rightly so. FDS has been in this hobby for a long time! They have been here longer then most of you! Now out of whats left, some of you are using all real parts. No need for venders who make replica parts. Out of whats left, some of you are building your own parts. So now what is left. Again I will be generous.... Maybe 1000 people? Now how many venders are out there. I do not know the answer to that question, but all the venders are trying to sell to those few people. I have heard asked, and I have asked, how can a piece of plastic cost that much to manufacture? Well it does not, BUT the time and money spent to get that piece to look like it does did cost! Time and money! Now all but a very few of these venders are one man bands and yes, part time! Why, because they could not possibly make enough money from selling to us to make a living! So they have family, friends  jobs and probably other interests as well. Now please understand I am not trying to excuse venders who do not respond to emails and questions, especially if you have spent money with them, BUT..... Keep in mind if a one man band is responding to emails, answering your questions or talking on the phone with you, they are not in the shop working on product! So have a little patience when dealing with these little guys. Now having said all this, there is more. Most of the venders in this hobby carry no inventory. Why? Because inventory = $$ and no matter what they would stock, it would never be what folks where ordering. It is just the way it would work so most of the venders build to order. That means you could have al long wait. Venders do need to give realistic build times! I have read in most of these responses that you would be willing to wait 6 months and I agree. Just tell us how long realistically I will have to wait for my parts. If there are delays, tell me! Just don't leave me hanging. I have been in this hobby longer then it has been a hobby. There are still a few of us left from way back then. I have seen many venders come and go. Some of them where at one time very good. But the better they get, the busier they get and as Ray stated, all of a sudden they have bitten off more then they can chew. We, as a group, control who stays as a vender and who goes as a vender and we have over and over again.  This site has chased away folks who wanted to help the community and are still in business doing well. They just don't come here. I have been burned a couple of times and yes, by venders who are still in business and doing well today. Why do you not know bout it, because sometimes vender issues are brought on by ourselves. I have seen in here on several venders threads " I am having trouble with vender so and so" "Funny I have done a lot of business with them and have no problems" So see, sometimes it is just that the individual just does not hit it off with that vender. Yes it is true! You will not get along with everyone. Sorry folks I have been in retail a long time and no, the customer is not always right. Now back to the "list" Trevor is right, what is true today will not be true tomorrow and that is where maintenance comes in. It would have to watched and checked all the time or it would fast become junk. I think the best way is we just tell each other our dealings with the venders here. Be truthful and disclose ALL the facts. Come back and tell the rest of the story when it is over and post the good stuff too not just the troubles. We as a small group dictate who the venders are. Be a responsible consumer, be diligent and most of all be fair. If a vender deserves a black eye, give it but do it responsibly. If they deserve praise, give it, but again do it responsibly! Your experience will not be the same as the next guys! Remember that.

[Joe Lavery]

Hey Bob, you should make that post into a book....

But seriously, point taken, I bow to your, (and Trevs) valid argument... 

All the best
Joe.

[Bob Reed]

Hey Bob, you should make that post into a book....

But seriously, point taken, I bow to your, (and Trevs) valid argument... 

All the best
Joe.

lol Yea it was a long post. I wanted to say more, and down the road I may, but this one was long enough!

[KyleH]

John,

I have remove the posts in question.   

...
Funny part of the story, I was sitting in the doctor's office when I started typing earlier, and then got called in too see her; well, I sometimes hit post because I lose what I type if I dont and when the browser closes, or I also try to type, post, reread, edit, and fix all my postings before someone else quotes it because I don't use notepad or word too pretype everything. Anyway, when I got back near home (Walmart parking lot), I saw my typos and was editing them exactly when you pulled the quote...so yep, talk about timing...
...
John

Everyone please take note that this is not a good practice. Remember this is a public forum and things you post can be viewed and quoted by anyone right away. The mods are not on here 24/7 and it may not get dealt with for several hours.
If you do not have enough time to immediately review what you've written, then I suggest you save the text into some other editor such as notepad, or re-type it later.

[blueskydriver]

-Trevor, thank you for making the correction...

-Kyle, looks like you grabbed a quote from it before Trevor made the fix. Would you mind dropping the quote? If not, no worries, but that quote might make it sound like I edit "all" my posts, even when others post after me; thereby, sounding like I change mine after reading what they wrote. I don't do that at all...because it's not a good thing too do.

The problem is with me for two reasons. First, because I forget that I should be hitting the "Preview" button first, to read it, to make my changes, then preview it again, and then post it when it's finished. By me accidentally hitting post instead of preview, means what I am working on just got posted, yet I am still in edit mode where others might read and reply to it before I was actually finished with it. So, I will do my best to make sure I hit the right buttons from now on.

Plus, by using Preview, it alllows me to read the whole reply without having to scroll the text inside the typing box/window. With an iPad scrolling inside the window is really hard to do and we all know I do type a lot of really long replies...lol!

Second, I prefer to do it like it this because the reply function/forum plug-in has a nice spell checker built in and using the emojis is easier, along with all the additional buttons above the box that allow me do other functions. I also prefer this over using Word, because with Word you have to copy and paste your reply into the box and sometimes it does not work like it should because of Word.

My apologies if I confused anyone and again, I will do my best to hit Preview and not Post until it's really ready too be posted 

John