My New Computer Specs (feedback please)

[Caflyt]

So I finally got around to assembling my new main sim computer.
Here are the specs......
ASUS ROG Maximus XI Z390 mobo, I9 9900k delidded and binned from Silicon Lottery @5.0 GHz, TridentZ 32g RAM @3200, Thermaltake Water 3.0  cooler and ASUS ROG strix RTX 2080 Ti video card. I also have an EVGA 1200p2 modular PSU. With it OC'd to 5.0GHz my temps are hovering around 68c during Cinebench benchmarking with a score of 1248.

https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all/products/9900k50g


So here is my question...
Do any of you computer tech gurus out there see any problem with me being able to run my three projector system off of this single unit?

Craig

[blueskydriver]

Hi Craig,

I am curious about the ram latency speeds, do you know what they are? Also, are you running P3D or Xplane, as well as does your video card support three outputs directly for the projectors?

As far as I've always known, P3D (even old FSX) takes 3 computers for 3 projectors using server/client software like WideView or Xplane (has it included) to run everything smoothly.

John

[tennyson]

I'm running twin 2080ti's and have three projectors running off them.

The Gigabyte 2080ti will run all three projectors (in my case Optoma GT 1080 @1920 x 1080) off one card and then you can just use Fly-Elise to perform the stretching and warping magic.

I'm running my top card off the 16 bit lane and the second 20180ti off an eight bit lane, so the top card has two pick offs for the projectors.

So, what ends up happening is all three projectors are running off 8 lanes each.

If that all makes sense.



Frank

[Caflyt]

John,
The memory latency is 16-16-16-36 @1.35v
Using P3d 4.5
All projectors can run from the 2080Ti card

Frank,
I have 3 Optoma 1080GT PJ's
Did you find it was "necessary" to have 2 video cards or was it just personal choice?

[tennyson]

Hi Craig.
It was a bit of both, mate.

I ran it one 2080ti (the 16 lane pci-e slot), then took some stats and then came back and installed the second card and did the same.

I was and will be running some heavy apps, like REX Environemt, Rex Skyforce and UTL, to mention a few. These alone are frame hogs, so running two cards had the sim running smoother than one.

I know that there are guys out there running P3D and a whole bunch of accessory apps with i5's and 16Gb RAM, but seriously, look at the graphics.

In the end, I think it comes down to what you can afford, bearing in mind that an extra 2080ti will cost you an extra 2 grand, so justifying the expense for those extra smooth frames can be a difficult job.

The video's on my youtube site (which are all shot at 4K) will show you the type of quality that two RTX cards give me, with reasonably high sliders.


Frank

[Caflyt]

Frank,
That is great information, thank you. I will now have to start thinking about adding another one in the future.
First I will test it as it is and see what the results are and then maybe pick your brain after that.

[blueskydriver]

Craig,

What type of case are you using with this setup?

Also, here is a thought. Since you're looking at temps for your benchmarking, have you ever tried dropping the ambient room temp before running your tests? I learned years ago that by placing a portable AC unit (that has humidity control) directly in front of the computer(s) air intake side (usually the front of the box), you can drop the running temps by 5-15C or even higher.

That might not seem like much; however, let's say you're running your sim in the winter time and you have the household furnace on at 68F or since you live in Florida. Let's say you have your sim running during the summer time and the household AC is pushing 72F, with your normal PC temps hitting 68-70C (albeit, they will be hotter during actual flying) this would be fine. However, these temps don't count all the other sim items in the room that generate heat and raise the local proximity ambient temps.

Thus, something like your living room may feel like 72F from the household AC, but the sim area/room will feel and likely be 85F. Now, add that ambient temp to your PC while flying. Most likely you'll be closer to 85C or higher, and the big question is what temp will your motherboard or other hardware overheat safety mechanisms kick-in and reboot/shutdown the machine?

Basically, you'll find that by adding a localized AC unit to the sim PC(s) and the sim area in general, it will greatly improve the performance of your simulator. As long as your pumping heat out of the room and cold air in, your entire system will perform at its best...a simple way too look at all of this is by thinking about computer server rooms.

Pretty much it's common knowledge that server rooms are ice cold all year round. Even Google uses a natural waterfall cave to cool their servers, so in other words, if you apply this practice to your simulator/and area, it'll work the same. 

John

[Caflyt]

John,
Mine is an "open case" design from Thermaltake.
I will be installing the computers into a custom "closet" with fresh cool air flowing into it from near the bottom and an exhaust fan(s) at the top pulling the air through. I do have a portable a/c unit for the sim in the garage and will have it pumping cold air into a box which will act as a distribution center. The air "box" will have ducts with in-line duct fans providing air to the a/c vents inside the sim as well as one duct supplying the computer "closet".
Sounds good in theory but we will have to see what practical results we get when it gets to that phase of my looooooong build.

[kingchiro]

Hi all,
I think the general consensus from most forums is that no two similar computers will perform the same due to the infinite hardware and software combinations. Franks setup is a proven combination but financially difficult for most people to afford.
I run P3D 4.5 using, still, an 4970K OC at 4.4 ghz and a 1080 Ti. I have 3 BenQ 1080 projectors and a monitor for windows /P3d main screen with menus, off the 1080Ti. I use Fly-elise for warping and until recently was using Nvidia Surround with good frame rates. In the last month I have been using Viewgroups now with a 200 deg view.
I use Rex Skyforce and Environment force and UT2 as well as other 3rd party addons and heaps of ORBX and photoscenery.
It is really only the large airports like LAX that really gut the frames down to 10 trying to taxi.
I flew out of Dubai airport today and was getting 22 fps. Once airborne no problems at all. I'm trying unlimited and once flying was getting 40-45 fps.
This means nothing with so many other graphics settings options that I have chosen. I have made some compromises with graphic settings.
The point I'm making is that your computer should have no problems if that's what mine can do.

I will admit that viewgroups in my case has shaved a few frames off but considering the extra processing power required, no surprise.
Nvidia Surround really did annoy me when looking left or right and not seeing a runway where it should be as I think the field of view was ~130 degrees if i remember right.

Just my thoughts.

Exciting times ahead for you.

Mark   

[tennyson]

Great  point, Mark.

The point about View Groups is well worth mentioning as well.

I'm about to do another alignment using the latest iteration of Fly-Elise Calibration Pro. The output files will all be input to P3D using View Groups.

The Fly-Elise software just keeps getting better and more user friendly.



Frank

[Caflyt]

Mark,
Your configuration of PJ's and a separate monitor is exactly what I am looking at doing. I had that same config with my last rig using the 1080Ti but was confounding to setup.
I would like to pick your brain a little once I get to the "setup" phase.

[helloo]

tennyson , what is your youtube channel?  I would like to take a look at the videos.  Thanks. 

[Caflyt]

https://www.youtube.com/user/tennyson1957

[Neil Hewitt]

If I can chip in... your PC specs are excellent, but I doubt you'll get away with a 3-window setup in P3D with just the one machine unless you're happy to dial some sliders left and accept frame rates in the teens and below in some areas.

While it's certainly the case that different PCs with similar specs seem to get wildly varying results, the fact is that P3D is almost always CPU-bound: that is, the CPU will max out before anything else does and will become the limiting factor affecting performance. Recent versions, and especially the introduction of PBR in P3D 4.4, have made it possible to choke very high-end GPUs, but it's rare to have the GPU be the limiting factor affecting FPS.

Most people see one core of their CPU pegged at 100% all the time when running P3D, no matter what jiggery-pokery they do with affinity masks etc. Actually, the sim does a better job now of loading the cores than you can achieve by manual tweaking (controversial opinion, I know <g>). Most of the work of the sim has to be done on a single thread, so can only be run on a single CPU core. The other cores mostly spend their time loading textures, and with P3D maxing out Core 0, Windows will move other tasks onto the other cores. Lockheed Martin has done a good job updating the engine and moving the work they can onto other cores and the GPU, but the nature of a visual simulation is that you have to calculate the positions and movement of lots of objects before you can render a frame and the results of one calculation depend on the results of the previous one, so they have to be done in order and cannot be parallelised. If Microsoft's FS2020 videos are to be believed, it would seem they've done the hard work and made an engine that can perform much better than the FSX/P3D engine can with significantly better eye-candy. But I'll believe that when I see the beta.

So: can you run your sim purely on this one machine with a 3-view setup? Yes, undoubtedly. But my experience is that your FPS will drop to unacceptably low levels, depending on where you fly and the scenery you use. For reference, my sim currently runs on one machine (but was multi-channel until last week, why I changed back is a long story) and has 2 views across two projectors plus a third 'virtual cockpit only' view on another monitor, and a bunch of 2d panels dragged onto other screens (I have 7 connected to this PC across two GPUs). The spec is on a par with yours (i9 9700K clocked to 5.2GHz) though my GPUs are 'only' 1080Ti's :-) Flying in and around London - which most people seem to agree is one of the most FPS-unfriendly areas in the world - with ORBX True Earth GB South plus payware EGLC and EGLL, I can get 25-35 FPS but only if I dial the scenery complexity down to Sparse. I can have autogen up to Dense or even Very Dense, though, and autogen draw distance up to the second notch (can't remember what it's called). Most other slides are all the way to the right except traffic which is injected via UT Live. It's flyable but there are stutters in and around London and I can't dial the scenery up to Normal anywhere I have complex payware airports or else it becomes a slideshow.

Most of that FPS hit is caused by the second view - with just one view open I can get 30 FPS with scenery at Very Dense but than I can't have a 180 degree perspective-corrected display. I could get both by going back to a three-channel system with one PC per projector plus a host PC, but then multichannel introduces a whole raft of issues and problems that I got tired of dealing with. It's all a trade-off.

If I was running three projectors and hence three views, I'd have no choice - it would have to be a multi-channel system. Otherwise there's just no way to get FPS that I would find acceptable given the kind of scenery I fly in. And I'm only using relatively lightweight aircraft like the QW146 and some Carenado stuff. I dread to think what would happen if I tried to run a PMDG bird at Heathrow!

(BTW, Frank's videos on Immersive Calibration Pro are super-useful and inspired me in my own setup. At the risk of self-promotion, here's my Immersive Calibration Pro tutorial video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktv70mdizpw. I had an older version which Frank was nice enough to comment on and refer people to, but it had a lot of problems, so I made a new one. It covers setting up a 180-degree display with a two-camera system.)

[kingchiro]

I've just completed Neil's very comprehensive and informative video and in conjunction with Frank's videos of Fly-elise they really are the best in getting you at least in having ago with warping and calibration.
I think from what Neil said about the CPU and the fps, I would say that we will not have all our sliders to the right in all scenarios until either hardware leapfrogs the software or as alluded to with maybe a new engine such as maybe seen in the upcoming FS2020.

I have a cockpit and a flightcrew and we regularly fly with my ' antiquated ' cpu and have a pretty good time. I just realise that certain airports/cities are probably not worth a visit. Thank P3D/ORBX that it is a huge world out there that we fly in.

I think enjoy with the setup you've got and alter the graphics settings depending on where you are flying. Update when can. Funny how nothing has changed in the last 30 years !
 
I've made a few videos for my Learjet Forum so I'll include my latest one to illustrate how my setup performs. Remember that this CPU (4970K at 4.4ghz)  is also running a monitor ( as well as the three projectors ) with the main P3D window with the virtual cockpit running.

I hope this video works and if so enjoy. It goes for about 7 minutes so as to not bore everyone.

https://youtu.be/ga6K1YWnvW8

Mark

[Caflyt]

Thanks to everyone who has made comments here and I will have to see what results I can achieve with this machine. All of this feedback is great!
I have seen Nat (Natvis) reference some setups he has installed with one machine and it gives me hope that a reasonable configuration is possible however I am not sure how and with what hardware he has accomplished it. He is a master at this and he is a "business " so it would be unfair to ask him for the details of his magic formula.
My point is that it seems a practical solution may be possible but at what expense and with what trade off.

Thanks again for all of your amazing information and suggestions.
I hope to soon get a chance to connect all of my projectors to this new machine and give it a go. Time is always my enemy so it may be a little while before the opportunity presents itself but I will report here when the time comes.

[Neil Hewitt]

I think enjoy with the setup you've got and alter the graphics settings depending on where you are flying. Update when can. Funny how nothing has changed in the last 30 years !
 
I've made a few videos for my Learjet Forum so I'll include my latest one to illustrate how my setup performs. Remember that this CPU (4970K at 4.4ghz)  is also running a monitor ( as well as the three projectors ) with the main P3D window with the virtual cockpit running.

I hope this video works and if so enjoy. It goes for about 7 minutes so as to not bore everyone.

https://youtu.be/ga6K1YWnvW8

Mark

Yes, absolutely. We do this for fun and if you can't enjoy it, what's the point? And in many ways, it's the hobbyists like us who are on the bleeding edge. The graphics in most commercial sims are pretty disappointing, because they are designed for procedural realism and accurate flight dynamics, not eye candy. Does anyone do a full 6-hour transatlantic flight in a commercial Level D sim? I doubt it. We want it all, and so we're butting firmly up against the limits of the technology. Also, remember that in terms of raw single-threaded speed, the latest i9 chips are perhaps 10-15% faster at maximum than the venerable i7 4970K - all the advances have been in core count and base clock speed, but you could always turbo the 4970K to 4.6, maybe even 4.8GHz, and really the top end practical overclock for any CPU today is 5.2GHz or thereabouts. There just hasn't been a significant increase in raw CPU speed in the last 10 years, and to be honest, there's unlikely to be any in the next 10 years. I don't think 6GHz will ever be reached (barring stunts like liquid nitrogen cryogenic cooling) without a fundamental change in the underlying technology.

I do have high hopes for FS2020 but there are huge unanswered questions about it, and if it's truly a new engine and a whole new simulator then all our tools like FSUIPC will be obsolete and cockpit builders in particular will have to wait until someone makes new solutions - if that's even possible. We shall see. I have applied to be on the alpha preview program but there's a strict NDA on it so even if I do get in, I won't be able to tell anyone :-)

Mark - loved the video and your sim looks brilliant. Are you a Project 45 member? That looks like it might be the Ron Rollo shell? I bought the plans from Ron a few years back with the intention of building it (though not specifically for an L45 sim) and I might just get around to it sometime in the next few years once I have the shed in my back garden to house the project in...

[kingchiro]

Hi Neil,
Yes I am in the Hangar 45 group.
My shell is Ron's and my co builder and I built it from his paper plans. We did make one major alteration and that was to take the back wall out. Us two old sticks ( in our late 50's) wondered how we were going to get our old creaky arthritic bones onto those seats, without doing an apprenticeship at cirque du Soleis !

We ended up removing the wall and extending the floor back, so we could have a longer seat rail system. Marvelous changes as I found that with four computers running everything that I was quite frequently having to jump out of the seat to fix software glitches. Had the wall been there I think I would've ended up at the Orthopaedic Surgeons quicker. If you like that cosy feeling on the flight deck then you could always put a curtain across where the wall was.

Glad you liked the video. they are alot of fun but alot of work to make. Maybe I'll call that my second hobby !

It's funny talking about cpu's and Craig quizzing about his setup being acceptable. P3D v5 should be next so it is an ideal time for some of us to take the opportunity to upgrade the hardware. If you look at ORBX True Earth for U.K and the North West pacific ( for X plane so far)  the view needs a double take to work out what is real and what's not. There is some complaint about the hardware not handling the frame rates. So with the P3D U.S. version coming out next year then it could be timely to also update at the same time for that aspect as well.
Lucky I don't say anything to the wife or she'll want a new horse float !

Cheers
Mark