I/O Cards and wiring and programming a 737 Throttle Quadrant

[tkellogg]

I need some direction. I have managed to tear down and rebuild my 737 throttle quadrant but now I face the daunting task of making it operational. Thanks to FredK's posts with photos along with flaps2approach's website I am pretty well versed in which mechanical components I need along with which I/O cards I need. Where I need help is how to wire all of the cards to the mechanical components and how do I tell my flight software, in this case P3D, how to communicate with these cards? Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Obviously many of you have already done this I just can't find where anyone has explained the process.

[blueskydriver]

I believe you're talking about offsets per se. Or, the data that is sent from/to the flight sim program via the I/O cards.

Which I/O cards are you using?

In short, the offsets or whatever the name the sim program calls them, is sent to the I/O cards, and in turn the cards translate that into mechanical movement and/or input/output readings/commands.

An input reading for example is when you move the flap position, like if you move it from flaps 5 to flaps 10. Changing the position changes what the reading (offset) is and thereby, changes (commands) it in the flight sim program.

For an output example, the flight sim program auto throttle commands half throttle, so it sends an output offset value to the I/O card, which in turn tells your throttle handle servo motors to move to the half throttle position.

More or less, this is how it all works, but the trick is always calibration, which is nothing more then telling the offset program where everything is. Meaning where are the zero, half, full positions, where are the full range of motions for things like the yoke and pedals, or where the default positions are for the switches/buttons aka inputs and lights aka outputs

Lastly, when it comes to switches/buttons and/or lights, you basically have two things. One is the position value for the switches/buttons and the other is on/off value. Thus, for a 5 position switch for example, you would have 0 for the off position and 1-4 for the other four position. And, for a light (led, bulb and etc), you would have 1 for on and 0 for off.

The best thing for you to do is read the manual about FSUIPC. Even though P3D, XPlane or the future MSFS 2020 might not use it the way FSX does, it's still all the same concept. Read about offsets and such, then it'll make much more sense.

John

PS I just barely even hit the tip of the iceberg on this subject, as it can be very elaborate depending on the simulated aircraft, the simulator program, the I/O cards and even the type of hardware. However, it's not really hard too learn, it's just a learning curve that seems steep at first.

[tkellogg]

John,

Thanks for the quick response. I understand programming and calibrating will be challenging and has a steep learning curve. But before I get that far how do you know which card is for which function of the throttle. There are numerous cards involved in motorizing the throttle but nowhere have I found which I/O card is associated with which function. Nor have I found where to wire each card. I assume you need to plug the card into the computer and supply power to it but that's the extent of my knowledge of I/O cards.

[blueskydriver]

The quickest answer is what type of controlling motors are you using to move the throttles? Are they stepper motors, servos, or another type? The I/O card(s) is usually matched toward the controlling motor, ie; a stepper card, a servo card and etc.

Generally, think of it all like a relay of sorts. The power for the motors (if 12 volt for example) comes from a 12v power supply with enough amps to supply the motors. The 12v wiring is from the power supply to the motors.

Now, the I/O card is nothing more then another set of lower voltage wires that tells the motors to turn on or off, or to move to this position or that position, and that's all done from the offsets sent from the sim program to the I/O cards.

I will try and find a simple diagram for you, but post your motor types beforehand. Do you have any I/O cards at this point yet?

John

[tkellogg]

I do. They're 12 v dc motors. I have followed Fredk's suggestions along with flaps2approach for motors and power supply and I/O cards

[navymustang]

Guys - not sure why anyone is talking about offsets if you are using P3D and Prosim. Prosim talks natively to Phidgets and other cards for a seemless throttle build. There are several folks who have done that on the site. My sim has been torn down so I can't help with the specs.

[tkellogg]

Alpha Quadrant Cards (2) – Throttle lever automation;
(ii)      Leo Bodnar 836 Joystick Controller card –  Movement of parts & buttons;
(iii)    High speed Belkin hub – Only one USB cable to computer;
(iv)    12-Volt power supplies (2) – Power for various throttle systems and autothrottle;
(v)      5-Volt power supply – Power for Belkin hub;
(vi)    Phidget 0/0/8 Interface Kit card – Controls stab trim speeds (forward, aft, flaps in/out, CMD A/B);
(vii)    Phidget 1066 Advanced Servo Controller card -  Controls stab trim indicator movement on throttle;
(viii)  Speed Controller cards (3) – Controls variable speed (4 speeds) of trim wheels;
(ix)    Relays (5) – Controls on/off for stab trim variable speed and specific autopilot; and,
(x)      Busbars – As required.

This is a list of items for a Throttle Information Module from Flaps2approach. I plan on duplicating his work and have ordered all of the components that I can identify

[blueskydriver]

Looks like you got everything you need in that list; especially, the Alpha Quad Cards.

Regarding the offsets, I just mentioned them as a way to explain things since FSUIPC has an easy to read manual.

In short, the offsets or whatever the name the sim program calls them, is sent to the I/O cards, and in turn the cards translate that into mechanical movement and/or input/output readings/commands.

Still, ProSim does use offsets, like Project Magenta and Sim A does. Also, P3D, FSX and Xplane (XFUIPC) communicates with them. The confusion might come from the fact that ProSim has predefined named assignments from drop down list, but you still need FSUIPC.

From ProSim  manual:

2.8 Install FSUIPC

ProSim737 currently requires FSUIPC to communicate with simulator platform

ProSim version 2.0 and higher allows the assignment of all flight control axis within ProSim737 System, so no axis configuration necessary in FSUIPC.

However, without knowing what a builder is using altogether, my first suggestion is always learning about offsets since they're used the most across the board of it all. Albeit, "some programs" already have them named and you can select them from drop down list, but they're offsets none the less.

Regarding the direct ProSim native connection to the hardware like Phidgets and others, I don't know if the Alpha Quads are, but you could ask on the ProSim website forum. Either way, you will find that if a card is supported you'll need to check to see what it all covers. Sometimes, what you think it'll cover is not always the case...in same rare instances.

The key is to look at all the manuals of the cards you own to understand what they all do, and then set them up accordingly...

Lastly, just to clarify, so you're using P3D, but what is your avionics suite...is it ProSim, Project Magenta, Sim A or something else?

Kind Regards,

John

[tkellogg]

John,

Thanks again. I actually only have purchased those items that have a brand name because they are identifiable. Whereas I have no idea what an alpha quad card is. If you could be more specific of brands or more detailed identification so I can find where to purchase the rest of the items I would approach it. For example all he says is relays without giving any detail. Thanks.

Tom Kellogg

[blueskydriver]

Hi Tom,

I am not exactly sure I understand what you're doing, but before you spend anymore money, let's answer some questions.

1. What Sim program are you using? You said P3D earlier, is that correct?

2. Which Sim Avionics program are you using, ProSim, Sim A, Project Magenta or something else?

3. Do you have your sim set up already with everything else and you're just trying to get your throttle automation going?

4. If yes to number 3, what else is setup already?

5. Knowingly, you used Fred's list, but have you sent him a PM yet? He is a great guy and will help you.

Lastly, Jim (Navy Mustang) is a great guy as well and if you PM him, explaining details, I'm sure he'd help out...

John

[blueskydriver]

Tom,

I looked at your website that was last updated in '14, and it only shows you building your sim. There is nothing under software, nor anything that answers my questions above. Thus, it'll help knowing the answers.

Also, you've been doing this since '07 right? Well, you're one of us ole timers at this...lol...so, you already know this can be frustrating at times! Still, everyone on the CB will try to help you...

John

[tkellogg]

I am using P3D and Project Magenta. May switch to MSFS if it's as good as the previews. So far I only have the MIP working with Project Magenta. I will follow your advice about PMs. Thanks.

[blueskydriver]

Okay, great 😁 Project Magenta uses fsuipc for sure, but for throttle movements it's a little different for the commands.

However, you'll need to ask Fred about Alpha Quad Card vs the Phidget Motor Control Card. Looking at Flaps2Approach here:
 http://www.flaps2approach.com/journal/2013/12/22/b737-throttle-quadrant-automated-thrust-lever-movement.html

It says this:

"Main Controller Cards

The controller card I have used is not a Phidget card but a specialist card often used in robotics (Alpha Quadrant card).  The software to program the card has been independently developed by a software engineer and does not utilize Phidgets.

The technology used in the controller card is very similar to that utilized by NASA to control their robotic landers used in the space industry.  The technology is also used to control robots used in the car industry and in other mass production streams.  One of the benefits of the card is that it utilizes a software chip (firmware) that can be easily upgraded ore replaced. 

The Alpha Quadrant cards provide the logic from which the automation of the throttle unit operates.  The cards act a 'bridge' between the card and the avionics suite - "call it a language transfer if you will."

Being able to program each card allows replication of real aircraft logic and systems.  Whenever possible, these systems and their logic have been faithfully reproduced."

Thus, you can see he used the Alpha Quad Card with it's own proprietary software, and if not, he says it'll be the phidget motor controller card. If were me, I'd go after the Alpha Quad Cards with it's software. Although, I cannot find a link for them on flaps2approach...nor a link for who wrote the software.

John

[tkellogg]

John,

Thanks for the response. I missed the page you linked when I reviewed flaps2approach's website. That will answer some of my questions. Thanks.

[tkellogg]

I like his approach to things but unfortunately he doesn't give enough detail to duplicate his work. I've tried twice to communicate with him with no answer.

[blueskydriver]

Did you try this email for Iain:

My e-mail is idwilliams@iinet.net.au

Also, he goes by Willow on this website:

https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1081

John

[FredK]

I am using an Open Cockpits "DC Motors Plus" card for interfacing all wiring.  Everything connects to it....12V current for the motors, pots, and switches.  That is the beauty of it.

For programming the OC card you will need a SIOC script. I am using a SIOC script that I wrote.  It interfaces with SimA using a combination of FSUIPC offsets and SImA direct assignments.  That script can be adapted to any sim avionics platform that employs FSUIPC. Others are using my script without issues. I can provide that to you.

My TQ build has withstood the test of time. It is nearly 6 years old now.....no major issues whatsoever to speak of.  The OC interface card is the original.

My strong advice to you is to do your homework to understand how interfacing works before you buy anything.  Also, you will need a basic understanding of script programming no matter what interface you choose....OC, Phidgets, etc.  A home built TQ is not "plug and play". In that regard do not be intimidated if you are a novice with all that.  It really is not rocket science but there is a learning curve involved....and it involves some time and patience.

Fred K



Fred K


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[tkellogg]

Thank you for the email address. I have not tried that.

[tkellogg]

Fred,

I purchased the open cockpits DC motor card already. Are you saying that's the only card I need? No Leo Bodner card, nor phidgets cards or servo motor cards like Flaps2approach uses? No relays either? I still need a power supply for the motors correct?

[FredK]

Fred,

I purchased the open cockpits DC motor card already. Are you saying that's the only card I need? No Leo Bodner card, nor phidgets cards or servo motor cards like Flaps2approach uses? No relays either? I still need a power supply for the motors correct?

That is correct.....just the OC DC Motors Plus card and a 12V power source.  Nothing else other than the pots and switches that connect to it. I am using a standard computer PSU for the power source. That part is really very simple.  The script programming will require some customization for your particular application.

Fred K


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tkellogg]

Wow I'm glad I didn't purchase all the items on that list. Looks like I bought an extra few cards but that's it. Thanks again for everyone's helps. I'll keep you posted on my progress

[fordgt40]

Hi Fred, very sound advice! I was getting a little concerned over the way this was heading!

Keep it simple

David

[blueskydriver]

Looking back over this thread, I took it that Tom already purchased everything on that list from Flaps2Approach, and hence my suggestion to use the Alpha Quad card. If he had that already, with proprietary software and I assume it's plug and play, then that would be easier.

However, now seeing that he does not have everything already, I would suggest the OC DC Motors Plus Card like Fred has...why? Because I have the very same card; albeit, I never got around to setting it up. That's due to my lack of skills with SIOC and needing a good script for the throttle automation. Until Fred mention that he has one, I never asked about it.

Therefore, Fred can I get a copy of the script from you? If you have other SIOC scripts for different OC cards please let me know, since I have whole slew of them.

Lastly, sorry to confuse anyone with this setup issue of Tom's. And, I agree with David 100%...keep it simple.

John

[mickc]

There are so many different ways to interface a TQ these days, things have come quite a way since back in 2012/13.   
I have interfaced 3 now, 737 CLs and one 737 NG.

By far the easiest way is with Pololu JRK controllers and Prosim737, but if you are running PM i guess that rules it out.

Some things I have learned over the years of doing these is that I would use Hall effect devices over pots every time, and also if you decide to use string pots,
make sure the string comes out within 2-3 degrees of the centre. If they are off centre they will wear through the string in a few thousand cycles (which doesnt take long in a sim TQ)

[FredK]

Looking back over this thread, I took it that Tom already purchased everything on that list from Flaps2Approach, and hence my suggestion to use the Alpha Quad card. If he had that already, with proprietary software and I assume it's plug and play, then that would be easier.

However, now seeing that he does not have everything already, I would suggest the OC DC Motors Plus Card like Fred has...why? Because I have the very same card; albeit, I never got around to setting it up. That's due to my lack of skills with SIOC and needing a good script for the throttle automation. Until Fred mention that he has one, I never asked about it.

Therefore, Fred can I get a copy of the script from you? If you have other SIOC scripts for different OC cards please let me know, since I have whole slew of them.

Lastly, sorry to confuse anyone with this setup issue of Tom's. And, I agree with David 100%...keep it simple.

John

I will provide you guys my latest TQ script within the next week. 

My home desktop computer where I have all that archived crapped out this weekend right after the major update to WIN 10 v1909. 

The backup would also not install which leads me to believe my hard drive just could not take the WIndows update nonsense anymore and committed suicide.

As a general rule I do not like to send emails from my sim computers within a discipline of keeping them pure and isolated for their purpose.  I have component parts on order for a new home desktop build. Once that is up and running I will send the script.

Fred K


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