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Are TV's the way?

Started by rhysb, September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 PM

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sagrada737

Hello Maurice,

That's right...   It is a single Desktop to display FSX at 70fps.  I understand that un-docked views would significantly impact the frame rate.  It is interesting consideration however, to determine the benefit (if any) of using un-docked views with a 3-monitor setup.  Although it might offer significant improvement in reducing distortion on the Left and Right monitors.

In this regard, what is best - lower frame rate and less distortion, or higher frame rate with the side-views slightly distorted?

It seems to me that most of the attention is given to the Center display, but I might be incorrect in this assessment.

Mike
P3d v4.5x with Sim-Avionics (two computers), FDS MIP, 3-Optoma HD GT1080HD projection 120 deg. display driven by a single EVGA Nvidia GTX-1080Ti Water Cooled.  6dof Motion Platform using BFF 6dof motion software, driven by a Thanos Servo Controller to 6.2 KW Servos.

rhysb

I'm glad I started this post now as seeing those videos just makes so much sense to me to use led monitors and xplane! I think FSX in the day and xplane at night!

Regards the bezels I didn't really notice them in the video so sure I wouldn't in reality. Also the samsungs we bought for work were the latest ones with a 3mm bezel.

Rhys b
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

XOrionFE

Quote from: blueskydriver on January 14, 2013, 09:43:17 AM

I must say, you make it very hard not to switch over to LCD TV screens. Here are some questions for you:

How much did each unit cost by the way?
Which model of Samsung did you get?
How did you hook them up, HDMI or DVI?
This is 3 computers using Xplane, with each one having an LCD hooked to it right?
Is this still with NTHUSIM or just through Xplane for any warping?
Have you tried it through FSX yet, if not, will you do so just to get a look at it?

Okay, no more questions...  Otherwise, just email me back.

John

The model I got is this one and was on sale at Best Buy

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/UN60EH6003FXZA?

And correct, 3 computers with X-Plane 10.  Each computer has a EVGA GTX 560Ti card with a DVI to HDMI cable connecting to a TV.

No Nthusim

Haven tried with FSX/Wideview yet but will.

Scott

Maurice

Quote from: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 01:16:19 PM
Hello Maurice,


In this regard, what is best - lower frame rate and less distortion, or higher frame rate with the side-views slightly distorted?

It seems to me that most of the attention is given to the Center display, but I might be incorrect in this assessment.

Mike

With 3 projectors, running a single view is horrible when you look at the sides and everything is stretched ridiculously. But with 3 TVs and a much smaller field of view, the distortion on the side screens should be much less than with projectors. I would think that one view would be the way to go because of the significant benefit of much higher frame rates.

The good news is that you can easily try both and see which one you like best :)

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

sagrada737

Thanks for the comments Maurice.  I think I can see now why the side distortion would be less in a single view mode 3-monitor setup vs. a projection setup.  So it seems it is a trade-off as to side distortion vs. the frame rate hit for improved overall display quality. 

Like you stated, it would be fairly easy to test.  But when I try to setup for un-docked views using my TH2G, the display doesn't allow moving the newly created L/R views - they are always straight ahead.  Perhaps this is not possible to accomplish this using the TH2G, or there is something else I don't understand about un-docking views at this point.  Any advice?

Mike

P3d v4.5x with Sim-Avionics (two computers), FDS MIP, 3-Optoma HD GT1080HD projection 120 deg. display driven by a single EVGA Nvidia GTX-1080Ti Water Cooled.  6dof Motion Platform using BFF 6dof motion software, driven by a Thanos Servo Controller to 6.2 KW Servos.

jskibo

Quote from: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 02:32:35 PM
Thanks for the comments Maurice.  I think I can see now why the side distortion would be less in a single view mode 3-monitor setup vs. a projection setup.  So it seems it is a trade-off as to side distortion vs. the frame rate hit for improved overall display quality. 

Like you stated, it would be fairly easy to test.  But when I try to setup for un-docked views using my TH2G, the display doesn't allow moving the newly created L/R views - they are always straight ahead.  Perhaps this is not possible to accomplish this using the TH2G, or there is something else I don't understand about un-docking views at this point.  Any advice?

Mike

Mike, you'll need to set that up in the file after you create the windows. On that other site, mycockpit, someone made an excel file called window maker that does all the calls for you and gives you a copy and paste file to use.

Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

Maurice

Mike,

You may want to look at a guide that I wrote a while back. You can find it here:
http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=1340.msg9988#msg9988

Ivar Hestnes also wrote one and it may also be available in this forum.

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

nicd

January 15, 2013, 12:58:58 AM #157 Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:00:45 AM by nicd
Cool. But I'm not running out to buy TVs just yet  :).

I'm in the latter stages of development with a 5 panel continuous screen, 5 projector solution (ordinary XGA short throws) that gets rid of the blurries and fiuzzies, is clear, bright and sharp. No pixelation issues, no sim-shell shadows, no warping needed, no TH2GO, no surround/eyefinity, really good framerates, and on one PC.

The best bits for me is that it's impossible to see the bottom and top of the visuals from the pilot seats through any of the windows (4:3 rather than 16:9 makes a big difference here), and there are no bezels or joins (definite deal breakers for me personally). Plus its approx.240 degrees wraparound so no masking of rear windows needed. Current TV technology just can't match these features for a similar price (that may change in the future I guess.)

I'll post up some info and pics down the track as I get things finalised and stable. But thought I should post some news on progress before everyone throws out their projectors!  ;) 

cheers
Nic


blueskydriver

Now this I want to know more about!

John
| FSX | FDS-MIP OVRHD SYS CARDS FC1| PM | PMDG 737-700 | UTX | GEX | UT7 | ASE | REX2 | AES | TSR | IS | TOPCAT | AvilaSoft EFB | OC CARDS & OVRHD GAUGES| SIMKITS | SW 3D Lights | FS2CREW2010 | FSXPassengers | Flight1 AE | MATROX TH2GO-D | NTHUSIM | 3-Mits EW230Ust Proj |

XOrionFE

Quote from: nicd on January 15, 2013, 12:58:58 AM
Cool. But I'm not running out to buy TVs just yet  :).

I'm in the latter stages of development with a 5 panel continuous screen, 5 projector solution (ordinary XGA short throws) that gets rid of the blurries and fiuzzies, is clear, bright and sharp. No pixelation issues, no sim-shell shadows, no warping needed, no TH2GO, no surround/eyefinity, really good framerates, and on one PC.

The best bits for me is that it's impossible to see the bottom and top of the visuals from the pilot seats through any of the windows (4:3 rather than 16:9 makes a big difference here), and there are no bezels or joins (definite deal breakers for me personally). Plus its approx.240 degrees wraparound so no masking of rear windows needed. Current TV technology just can't match these features for a similar price (that may change in the future I guess.)

I'll post up some info and pics down the track as I get things finalised and stable. But thought I should post some news on progress before everyone throws out their projectors!  ;) 

cheers
Nic

This sounds really nice Nic but until I see it I ain't gonna believe it.    :) No projector within a comparible price to TVs can come close to matching a TV in clarity and contrast.   Second, no single PCs I am aware of can run that many screens at once with a true wraparound view like you describe.   You will bring FSX to its knees.   Unless of course you have invented some new simulation or made a major breakthrough in FSX graphics.    If what you say is possible then yes, I want to see it as well and I am sure everyone will.   But alas....seeing is believing so be sure to post a video like mine with a walk through the setup.    If what you say is true it will be legendary.

Looking forward to hearing (seeing) more about this.   

Best regards,
Scott

Maurice

I totally agree with Scott. The only current way to get acceptable frame rates on one PC with 5 windows might be with FS9, no traffic, fair weather and default airports. If you can pull it off with FSX Nick, you will be inducted in the cockpit builders hall of fame :). Just trying to perfectly line up 5 projectors without using any warping software would be real feat on its own.

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

jskibo

I guess 5 (4:3) projectors we are talking a span of 8000 x 1200? 

Seems like even Super Mario or Pong would have trouble with FPS at that size?
Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

blueskydriver

Thinking in 4:3 mode here, it might be in the range of 4000 x 600 if he drops to 800 x 600, but in that range it looks horrible. Okay, not horrible, but not great.

Still this line of thining makes me think of what happens when you drop the amount of bit colors? Normally, we all use 16 million colors or 32 bit color, but what happens in medium 16 bit color range? For example, I just dropped my lcd monitor in front of me to 16 bit and the colors were there; however, it got a dimmer. So, I could compensate by increasing or adjusting the brightness and contrast of the monitor itself in it's on screen settings.

Therefore, a theory would be to see what happens if we did the same with the projectors? If the bit rate of the color data is lowered, the amount of graphics the CPU has to crunch is lowered, and assuming we can compensate/adjust the brightness/contrast in the projectors, we should be able to match what is seen in the higher bit level.

I just finished flying from KMSP to KSLC, but I am going to fire the FSX computer backup and turn the projectors back on just to see what it'll look like. Although, I will not change the resolutions, it'll only be the color bit depth...

John
| FSX | FDS-MIP OVRHD SYS CARDS FC1| PM | PMDG 737-700 | UTX | GEX | UT7 | ASE | REX2 | AES | TSR | IS | TOPCAT | AvilaSoft EFB | OC CARDS & OVRHD GAUGES| SIMKITS | SW 3D Lights | FS2CREW2010 | FSXPassengers | Flight1 AE | MATROX TH2GO-D | NTHUSIM | 3-Mits EW230Ust Proj |

fsaviator

My three projectors are Benq XGA short throws, running through a TH2Go at 3072x768.

I can confirm that the picture is NOT the sharpest I would like.  Not bad and I can live with it without any issues, but NOTHING like what you will get from LED TVs.  System has nothing to do with it.  It's pixels.  The problem with XGA is that there are 2,400K pixels on my screen displaying the same picture that a higher resolution would use more pixels to display.  We're not even discussing the clarity of a TV or monitor versus a projected image on a background, affected by lighting conditions and overlap.

I'm interested to see what Nick comes up with.

Warren
Warren "FSAviator"
http://www.B737NG-Sim.com  |  https://www.facebook.com/fsaviator/
P3D45/ Prosim737 2/ ACE Dual-linked Yokes/ RevSim Proline TQ and Dual-linked Rudders/ CPFlight MCP PRO3 and EFIS'; MIP737ICS_FULL and SIDE737; Forward and Aft Overheads; Pedestal/ FDS MIP

blueskydriver

Hi Warren, and everyone else.

I broke off into a new thread to discuss the color bit depth here:

http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3063.msg23723#msg23723

Let this thread continue on discussing about the TV's, but there is a connection. What happens if the LCD screens are set to use 16 bit depth in the display settings of the OS, as well as FSX, TH2GO (if used) and the FSX file that is used to load the 3 windowed views (if used)?

John
| FSX | FDS-MIP OVRHD SYS CARDS FC1| PM | PMDG 737-700 | UTX | GEX | UT7 | ASE | REX2 | AES | TSR | IS | TOPCAT | AvilaSoft EFB | OC CARDS & OVRHD GAUGES| SIMKITS | SW 3D Lights | FS2CREW2010 | FSXPassengers | Flight1 AE | MATROX TH2GO-D | NTHUSIM | 3-Mits EW230Ust Proj |

jskibo

Still trying to wrap my head around how you drive 5 displays well off a single PC.  I supposed three video cards, not spanning your desktop via surround might work, but in a CPU heavy title like FSX, I would think you would be at a lower resolution to get acceptable frame rate.

The edge butting across five screens I would think wouldn't be more than a bit tedious to get aligned, but once done, unless someone bumps a projector or moves a screen, would be a one time event.

I would guess he's doing this with five flat screen, so no warping would have to be done, don't know though as the word continuous is used.

I might be in the minority here, but I like moving forward in resolution, I.e. 1920 x 1080 times three, versus giving up definition to get a further wrap around.  I mean its cool and all from what I have experienced, but in sim flying, just like my real world flying, my eyes are on my gauges and forward view 90% of the time.  Only in cruise, or those silling eights on a pylon, chandelles and lazy eights, am I looking out the side windows a lot.   Heck I spent five straight hours in the clouds from Salina to Muskegon in the Mooney (real world) on the panel the whole time.  I'd be more willing to add another PC or two and move to five 60" plasma's to get the wrap versus dropping color pallet or resolution to achieve it at this point.

Just my 2Kopeks
Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

Jetcos

3 x 70" Sharp LED TV's at our friends at iPilot in Zurich. A320 cruising.

One with the outside view above the sim for people to watch.
Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

jskibo

Looks really nice Steve.....Of course now my 60" ones look small :(


Just to confirm, this is one spanned window at 5760 x 1080 right?  Not three separate windows?
Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

fsaviator

I have four massive plasmas in my office at work...  they have to be at least 100 inches...  they go to our old VTC suite we just replaced with 120" ers (I think)....  They are easily six foot wide and at least four foot high each.

I wonder if I can borrow them for a few years.  I was going to use them for computer monitors. :o
Warren "FSAviator"
http://www.B737NG-Sim.com  |  https://www.facebook.com/fsaviator/
P3D45/ Prosim737 2/ ACE Dual-linked Yokes/ RevSim Proline TQ and Dual-linked Rudders/ CPFlight MCP PRO3 and EFIS'; MIP737ICS_FULL and SIDE737; Forward and Aft Overheads; Pedestal/ FDS MIP

jskibo

Quote from: fsaviator on January 15, 2013, 09:51:32 AM
I have four massive plasmas in my office at work...  they have to be at least 100 inches...  they go to our old VTC suite we just replaced with 120" ers (I think)....  They are easily six foot wide and at least four foot high each.

I wonder if I can borrow them for a few years.  I was going to use them for computer monitors. :o

I used a 50" plasma for many years as my primary PC monitor....

Now its 3 40" LEDs on my main PC.  Though I spend far more time on the iPad than the PC these days
Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

nicd

I know I'm teasing a bit but I will put up further detail once I'm happy and confident with the setup. There's still some things to iron out (projector alignment, corners, various FS vagaries etc.) and that will take time. If it flops I'll be the first to admit it, but from the major testing we did a few days ago the early results were very encouraging.

You guys are totally right about FSX, which is why I'm not using it. I wouldn't even be psycho enough to try this with FSX. Still FS9 for me .. I have it tweaked to an inch of it's life. 4 years ago I had 3072 x 768 running on TH2GO, mid-high quality scenery and dual-core with 20-30 stable FPS. So on the i7 it's a new world!  Mind you - I would have loved to have gone Xplane-10 with this (your videos have so convinced me Scott!), but just couldn't budget 5 PCs (that is an option though I suppose).

I'm on 32 bit colour, high-end scenery, ASE weather, sliders close to max, but no AI traffic unless I'm on VATSIM.

As we've discussed before - the thing with projectors, especially at 1024x768, is that the further away the image is from your eyepoint, the worse the pixelation, blurries etc. are. So I've turned that on it's head and the screen is placed similar to where you guys are placing your TVs. At 4:3 there are no top and bottom borders visible.

And yep its 5 flat panels but also a continuous screen - and a superb quality screen which makes all the difference ;). At 5 x 1024 close in I don't feel like I'm giving up much at all - especially given the gains from this method. I agree that a high-res LED TV will always give a better image than a projector .. but the difference between the two can be much reduced by not projecting over a medium or long throw.

5 displays off one PC .. 2 x Nvidia GTX 650s does it. You can't use Nvidia surround with 5 though (let's hope nvidia upgrade that).  The thing is, in this crazy sim building world, it's sometimes important to push the limits, ignore the specs, ignore the norms and try radical things. Sometimes things work that are not "supposed" to :)

Ultimately there is no right or wrong way. TVs, projectors etc etc are all a matter of what you want, your budget,  and the compromises you are or are not prepared to make. So it's a very subjective thing and comes down to personal choice in the end. It's cool that our community has some viable options to choose from and it's vital that we keep pushing the limits with each!

Anyway, stay tuned and I'll update in a few weeks.

MLeavy737

Wow Scott! Looks awesome! Can't wait to see it sometime again with the new screens.  You have me thinking now although I know I will try the projectors first I'm sure.  Don't know if I could get over the tv borders or not.  Well see.

Mike L
The 737 800/900... Fastest airplane with the gear down!

Maurice

Nic,

How do you manage to project over the shell when the screens are so close to the shell or are you using rear projections?

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

jskibo

Cool Nic. Can't wait to see some pics.

TVs were an easy choice for me as I was space limited in the new place and had only acquired two projectors, so I wasn't married to a setup yet. Cost also played a big part as the three 60's were only $2400, throw in another $200 for Scott's mount design and I think it's pretty cost effective.

I'm sticking with P3D for now as I may move to five screens at some point (and have hope for a 2.0 version (though they already stated a new license will be required for 2.0). Xplane on five would kill me with five PCs, unless I build a bunch of i5 boxes with five series video cards and a single 120GB drive in each.

They'll always be something new in this "sport"   Kind of the fun of it is figuring it out.

Playing flight sim on my Sinclair ZX80 I thought was the greatest thing ever, until I set eyes on the Sublogic release of FlightSim.  Little did I know what it would cost me. :)

Sim 1:  F16, running Falcon 4 BMS - In Build using a mix of real and repro parts + Pokeys cards
Sim 2:  Light Twin / Single with RusCool EFD1000, RSG GTN750 and FI guages

XOrionFE

I'm thinking you would only need 3 PCs for xplane still.   You could run two TVs on left off pc1, one on center being pc2 and main server, and the 3rd on the left with two.   Your center view could be say 45 degrees and each of the other pcs would run 90 degrees across an extended desktop.

This is my possible future plan if I ever add two monitors.  This is also easy for me to test now because I can shift the TVs all over by one thus having two on one side and the center to test the side theory.  I think it would work fine.

Might have to try that this weekend just to see the results.

Scott

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