Are TV's the way?

[tennyson]

Hi Guys.
Following this discussion very carefully.

If I could just bring back a piccy that I think Scott (I hope it was him, and with his kind permission) originally made:



So, if we replaced the 65" projector screens with 65" lcd's (which are on special at JB's at the moment for 2 grand each) that would give us almost 180 degree visuals?

Am I correct?


Frank Cooper

[nicd]

haha John .. yeah, FS version 1 on an IBM PC ... start of a long and expensive slippery slope into "why isn't this like the sims at CAE" oblivion !   

Mau.. you the man!  I deliberately didn't mention rear projection to see who would figure it out. You're on the money.  The back projection screen is from Carl's Place (thanks to John for his earlier work with them) and it is superb! Makes all the difference with image quality.

Scott .. ah didn't know that about Xp10 (extra display each) .. that's good news.

[jskibo]

So Scott, like this?





Really ingenious idea, gotta hand it to you!

[blueskydriver]

Hi John,

A little off thread here, but I noticed in your pics the power cords you're running and how you have a long extension cord with a power strip, and then you have another power strip plugged into it. And, in your last power strip you have multiple items plus some power blocks (wall warts). Well, that is exactly what I use to do and I melted two power strips, as well as I had brown melting spots on the power blocks.

Plus, I used to do several extension cords in this manner because I only had 3 outlets (1 outlet on 1 circuit and 2 outlets on another circuit) at the time. Anyway, I will never do things like that again; especially, because the melting actually melted the fire rated carpet (not easy to catch fire carpeting) underneath. It happened when I wasn't home no less...scared me into adding a 100amp subpanel with 12 circuits (11 are 20amp each for the sim and 1 is 15amp grounded for outside pole light).

John

[XOrionFE]

So Scott, like this?


Really ingenious idea, gotta hand it to you!

Awesome.  Thanks John.  Yes, we spend enough money on everything that I figured I didnt need to spend $400-500 each on a bunch of crappy Chinese made stands that probably arent anywhere near as solid as these Home Depot McGuivered specials....

Looks like your all set!!

Scott

BTW - for the heck of it I tried FSX/Wideview this morning and looked really good!!!.....Until it crashed     Just sayin......

[jskibo]

Scott, they work really well.  Still going to find a way to further brace them when they are all installed.

John, that's just for testing.  I have two dedicated 20 amp circuits for the sim.  Most of those wall warts go away as well as I'm wiring the 12v to the PC power supply (SYS cards, LED lighting, etc). 

Good point though!

[Nat Crea]

BTW - for the heck of it I tried FSX/Wideview this morning and looked really good!!!.....Until it crashed     Just sayin......

Sorry..off topic...but Scott, you have mentioned a few times. I rarely get crashes with FSX/Wideview (as a result of wideview)...what kind of crashes do you have?

Nat

[Nat Crea]

Back on topic....

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows.

Nat

Couldnt resist...

[nicd]

yeah Nat ... smaller projection AND filling all windows  .. that's what I'm attempting to do

[blueskydriver]

I know this is going to sound silly, but has anyone ever tried backscreen projection material attached to the window frames, and then used projectors straight on or by mirror reflection onto the screens?

Just a curious thought about it and how it would look? The daylight brightness in the cockpit would surely be there...

John

[Nat Crea]

I tried once John, just quick and rough with opal acrylic,  but it was very weird and unrealistic.

Nat

[Maurice]

Back on topic....

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows.

Nat

Couldnt resist...

I did think about doing exactly that a while back but dismissed the idea since rear projection would be required to get a smaller projection close to the windows (same as what Nic is doing except with 3 projectors). But the image would still not be as bright, sharp and contrasty as a plasma or LCD TV would be. So you might win your bet but only because projection will never be as good as TVs no matter what screen size.

I still think that full wraparound is not worth the loss of clarity but I'm glad you disagree and are very happy with your existing setup. I wish I could stop wishing about what I can't have...brightness, clarity, sharpness with 240 degrees field of view and 60 fps average

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows.

Nat

Couldnt resist...

Haha, glad you chimed in Nat.

My take on this now having had both worlds is that the size in this case does not matter.   Since the LED TVs are brought in much closer to the windows they completely fill the front view and much of the forward side views and you dont see the tops and bottoms of the screens so to me it is exactly the same as looking at the projection.   The very rear sides of the side screens and bottom is visable looking out the side window but I dont really notice that especially with back windows blacked out and the lights off.   You dont notice really at all.   I get the same percepetion of filling my windows as I did with the projection.  In fact, I could bring the side monitors in more to fill that void but I like the view I have the way it is now.    Also, my friend CP and I had discussed that there could be potential loss of depth perception going to a flat surfaced screen.  We had discussed this back when I was thinking of changing my projectors to hit a straight screen instead of curves to get rid of the warping software and we both agreed it would probably change the sense of depth.    Well...in my eyes, my sense of depth with the LED TVs is now even better than it ever was on projection.   I think this is due to a number of factors.   First, my contrast ratio went from 2500:1 on the DLP projectors to 500000:1 on the TVs.   Second, everything on the screen is crystal and I mean crystal clear.   Third, all of the shadow rendering on X-Plane (and I am sure the same effect on FSX) is much much clearer...not fuzzy.   This means that the real dimensional aspects of depth built into the simulation really come to life now.   All of this is really hard to explain but for me at least, seeing was believing.   

Scott

[Nat Crea]

Mau, Scott...I take on-board what you say...but a SEAMLESS world is the only one for me.

Plus...TV's are so 80's 

Nat

[jskibo]

Thinking of rocking some 26" CRTs, what do you think? 

[blueskydriver]

Nat,

What zoom factor are you using and which airport scenery is that? Also, you're using 3 seperate computers (1 per projector) right? What are the specs on the computers?

John

[Nat Crea]

GDay John,

ORBX YMML Melbourne Airport.
3 x i7 2700K/Projector + older dual core for Server.
From memory, zoom is around 0.7

Nat

@John Skibo...LOL....maybe in a few years time.

@Mau, Scott...at the end of the day, If your happy with either visual, that's all that counts.

[HarryZ]

Mau, Scott...I take on-board what you say...but a SEAMLESS world is the only one for me.

Plus...TV's are so 80's 

Nat

Have to agree with you on that one Nat.  But everyone has their own ideas of what they prefer.

I just finished an exercise in removing my Triple Head 2Go  that was hooked up to 3 BenQ projectors on my curved screen.  I replaced my Nivida 570 video card with a Nvidia 660 that has 4 outlet plugs and the Surround View feature.

Replacing a video card normally has its headaches but this change of hardware was a real challenge with having to solve several issues. But in the end, the Surround View gives a better display and more intense graphics. As well, higher resolutions were available compared to the TH2G.

I now have a Nvidia 570 GTX video card available for anyone who may be interested.

Harry

[fsaviator]

Harry,
I might be interested in your Nvidia 570 GTX.

Can you tell me if going to the four head card improved your framerates at all over the TH2Go?  I'm still trying to figure out the way around this bottleneck for my wrap around/Benq system

[XOrionFE]

You guys should really start another thread instead of hijacking this one.   It is supposed to be about TVS,  not selling stuff or talking about projection, rear projection, etc.   just sayin....

Scott

[blueskydriver]

Scott,

Started a new thread...

John

[jskibo]

Can't aadd much until next week, the other two TVs shipped last night (and Panasonic went out of stock on them now....phew, got it in on time) and won't arrive until the 23rd.

What I can say is like Scott, I love the clarity, blacks are awesome, never saw so many stars, size wise it's almost perfect where they are positioned.

I'll need to step up my video card though.  The P3D machine had dual GTX 275's in it.  I can do Nvidia surround with them, but frame rates are just ok.  What I can't do is full screen with the added PcI card for my lower EICAS.  As soon as I put the main view full screen, I lose the 4th monitor to black.  The 600 series cards can do that as well as the AMD 7000 series.  Now I'm torn between a 670 and a 7970.  Always been an NVidia guy.  Anyone running a 7970 or 7950 have any comments?  They seem to perform better at high res with the larger memory bandwidth 384 vs 256 bit.

[HarryZ]

Harry,
I might be interested in your Nvidia 570 GTX.

Can you tell me if going to the four head card improved your framerates at all over the TH2Go?  I'm still trying to figure out the way around this bottleneck for my wrap around/Benq system

Warren,

I just completed the process yesterday and am testing everything now.  Initial results show FPS as good as before but I've limited the FPS to 30 on the sim.  The biggest improvement so far is the depth of color and texture rendering.

I have to do more tweaking with the hardware and software since this exercise ended up arbitrarily changing settings that I had not touched during the change.  Was frustrating since I had to go looking for what had happened but like always you eventually find out the culprits.

I'll get back to you after I do a few more flights.

Harry

[Maurice]

.  Initial results show FPS as good as before but I've limited the FPS to 30 on the sim.  The biggest improvement so far is the depth of color and texture rendering.

Harry

You must have better eyes than me Harry:). I so wanted to see an improvement but I can honestly say I see no difference between my GTX690 and old GTX480 with THG. But as I said before, it could be that I do not know how to optimize the settings for the 690 and I am still messing with it and trying to squeeze better performance but so far, no joy for me.

Maurice

[HarryZ]

You must have better eyes than me Harry:). I so wanted to see an improvement but I can honestly say I see no difference between my GTX690 and old GTX480 with THG. But as I said before, it could be that I do not know how to optimize the settings for the 690 and I am still messing with it and trying to squeeze better performance but so far, no joy for me.

Maurice

Hi Maurice,

I can't speak for the 690 card and I've heard it's a bit of overkill for FS X. 

I've changed my Windows Desktop colour control from Windows to Nvidia and that made a difference in colour intensity.  The clarity of the ground textures in particular are quite a bit better than my 570 and TH2G. 

The 660 also seems to work with Warpalizer better.

Like I said, I need to do a fair bit more testing in various areas to compare what I had before.  I'll let all of you know how it works out.

Harry